Kiba Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 I couldn't do any of Kiba's combos. Kiba's 5BB 2C 214D etc combo works until after the IAD j.CC part. At that point it drops. Lmfao Thanks for trying them out though. I feel Tsubaki's corner damage potential is more limited in this version. I couldn't find a way to use charge to extend combos. In CS1 I could use charge to extend the loop into a super unsafe ender. In CS2, well she was just better. In this version, The most I can get was 4000 something and that's using mugen. In fact, all of my combos that went into 4000 were from mugen. Anything else, I couldn't really reach there. Not at the moment at least. I think the proration rate for all the D moves got severely lessened if this is the case. I swear if I hear Mugen again 5BB - 5CC - 623C - J.214A(w) - HJ.C - J.214D - 6CC - 236D - 5C - 2CC - 22C - 5C - 2C - 236B - 214B - 22B should technically award Tsubaki with 4K in the corner, but apart from that I haven't seen any other stuff really.
HajinShinobi Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 I swear if I hear Mugen again I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do with Mugen.
Airk Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 I would like to hear your explanation as to why you think she'll be so bad, Dusk. So far she looks different, not really worse I guess. I pretty much have faith that Arc isn't gonna make ANYONE unplayable. I felt like they got a step closer to perfect balance with CS2, I'm hoping another step towards that happens in CSX. A character doesn't have to be CS1 level of unplayable to be depressingly bad, especially when one is accustomed to a certain toolset. Besides, once again it's still a fairly new game and all we got is the info from the few of the US players who's gotten their hands on it and videos from Japan. I feel as if no one should draw conclusions just yet, or drop any character they enjoy till after they've got the game in front fo them. The problem is that this is all ANY of the communities have had, but most of them are looking at the limited information available and saying "That doesn't seem too bad." whereas we look at it and say "Wait, what? They did that AND that AND that AND that AND that? Why!?" There's no particularly compelling reason to believe that somehow we've completely missed something major enough to meaningfully offset the beating we seem to have gotten.
LuminAbyss Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) We could just be pessimisstic. Info is great, but physically working with the actual changes is better. It would be best to get the game and play it yourself before deciding whether or not to drop someone. Remember early CS2 Bang and Ragna? I'm just saying. I do feel for you though, Tsubaki looked like she got pretty hard. Edited December 1, 2011 by LuminAbyss
Kiba Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do with Mugen. Cool! I'm looking forward to seeing them in your next tournament!
redsilversnake Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 So far she looks different, not really worse I guess. No, she's obviously weaker. Much weaker, in fact. The 5B nerf in particular really hurts her footsies, since that's the only useful move she has for it. The 5C buff may be decent for frame-traps, but it's not enough to compensate for the fact that she's going to have an even harder time against characters like Ragna with a much better spacing game. Combine that with a generally lower damage output due to both it now being somewhat harder to get charge and the harsher proration on D moves, and it's clear how much weaker she is than in CS2. Like you said, no one's unplayable in Extend, and Dusk is exaggerating quite a bit, but all of her matchups are going to more uphill than they were before. Which is why I'm joining Kiba in profound sadness, seeing as I can't think of many matchups that were even, let alone in her favor.
Ginseng Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 how about the fatal counter combos? Sparring mode cpu is too hard to practice fatal counter combos on. I would probably need to set the cpu jin to hell mode so I can spam 5A to make him DP C. I can see it working though. I don't think the problem will be from fatal counter combos. It's just the proration nerf on D specials, and the 5B nerf that really hurts her potential in this game. Which is why I said I only got high damage reliably off of mugen.
Rhiya Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 care to explain this vast sea of nerfs I said "sea," not "vast sea." Don't put words in my mouth~ I would like to hear your explanation as to why you think she'll be so bad, Dusk. Literally, 5b nerf and combo path nerf are enough to completely fuck her over. If you don't get this, I can't explain anything more to you. It's harder to get damage because of the 5b nerf; the damage you get will lead to more damage less often since you don't send people to the corner as easily -and- you don't get oki as easily; and you just don't even get as much damage when you do hit. This doesn't even count system changes that fuck Tsubaki, like increased barrier pushback and CAs costing a primer. I'm especially unhappy with CAs costing a primer, because our DP is ass and we don't have an overwhelming offense to compensate.
Xie Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) Interesting (abridged) exchange in the newest Blueraji, I'm not sure how much you trust developers and their thoughts on balance, but here it is: Raw: 今井「割とツバキに弱体化が進んでるって噂を聞いたんですけど…本当なんですか？ ただでさえ元々弱かったのにどうなんですか森さん」 森Ｐ「いや、弱くはなって無いです」 今井「あ、そうなのー？最近ツバキが弱くなっちゃったんで勝てなくなっちゃいましたって（お手紙を）いただくんですけど」 森Ｐ「昔と同じ戦い方してはいけないんだよ」 杉田「強かったものが抑えられてるけど他に使わなかったものがこう……」 今井「なんだーみんながちょっと勉強不足なだけじゃんかよー」 森Ｐ「ヒントは衣だぞ、ヒントは衣」 Roughly Translated: Imajin (Tsubaki VA): I've heard Tsubaki was made weak newest version, is that true? Mori: No, she isn't weak. Imajin: Ah, really? There have been letters (to us) about how Tsubaki has gotten so weak she can't really win anymore though. Mori: You just can't use her the same way you used to. Sugita (Ragna VA): Some of her stronger points may have been made worse, but there are other things you can use. Imajin: Ah is that all? So people just haven't studied enough yet? Mori: The hint is the Install, the install yo. Edited December 1, 2011 by Xie
Airk Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) Interesting (abridged) exchange in the newest Blueraji, I'm not sure how much you trust developers and their thoughts on balance, but here it is: Roughly Translated: Imajin (Tsubaki VA): I've heard Tsubaki was made weak newest version, is that true? Mori: No, she isn't weak. Imajin: Ah, really? There have been letters (to us) about how Tsubaki has gotten so weak she can't really win anymore though. Mori: You just can't use her the same way you used to. Sugita (Ragna VA): Some of her stronger points may have been made worse, but there are other things you can use. Imajin: Ah is that all? So people just haven't studied enough yet? Mori: The hint is the Install, the install yo. Huh. Ooooookay. So I presume he's talking about her Drive, not "mugen", since her drive is officially called "Install". I wonder what this means, since almost every aspect of her drive seems to have gotten worse. o.o Have we come to any conclusions about how magic charge cancelling is or isn't? That doesn't really seem like a big deal though. >lost< Still, not feeling very thankful for the decision to completely upend the character and turn her into something new. If I wanted an all-new character, I could just pick someone else. :P Edited December 1, 2011 by Airk
BeaverDeity Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 Maybe by the install they're making her more "mage-like" with the mugen and various install things. That'd be pretty cool because I love mages, but... These tools need to be discovered still :3
Tsubaki 5B Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 I said "sea," not "vast sea." Don't put words in my mouth~ Literally, 5b nerf and combo path nerf are enough to completely fuck her over. If you don't get this, I can't explain anything more to you. It's harder to get damage because of the 5b nerf; the damage you get will lead to more damage less often since you don't send people to the corner as easily -and- you don't get oki as easily; and you just don't even get as much damage when you do hit. This doesn't even count system changes that fuck Tsubaki, like increased barrier pushback and CAs costing a primer. I'm especially unhappy with CAs costing a primer, because our DP is ass and we don't have an overwhelming offense to compensate. man you are negative xD and i said vast sea because the context of your post suggested she had so many nerfs lol and further more i just asked you question bro theirs no reason to be rude i didn't say you were wrong lol but i just wanted to know why you didn't like the new tsubaki damn. welp i'm done i'll just stick to watching vids lol
Rhiya Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 i just wanted to know why you didn't like the new tsubaki damn Then ask that, specifically. Other than her just being bad, I like sprite characters. BB doesn't really have a Millia or a VAkiha, which sucks for me, but I've gotten used to being able to do some of what I like to do with Tsubaki. Looks like I won't be able to anymore, so I think I'm (rightfully) sad.
pktazn Posted December 1, 2011 Author Posted December 1, 2011 Thanks for the info Ginseng and for the translation Xie. I'm probably just gonna have to wait until I get to play myself and see what can be found in terms of combos. Are her air normals just as bad? I mean it looks like it from videos but I thought I'd ask anyway. So even fans are going to Imajin about Tsu. Maybe she can get Mori to make her better lolol. It's interesting that Mori wants us to use install but they made it harder to get charges as well as making it harder to get decent damage from those charges according to what Ginseng was saying. I have a feeling he has the idea of what he wants Tsubaki to be and do but... it's just not showing especially when you have Ragna and Valkenhayn running around pretty much unchanged + buffs from CS2 hah.
Fallacy Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Holy crap counter assaults are gonna cost a primer? wtf! thats gonna suck.
Xie Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) Huh. Ooooookay. So I presume he's talking about her Drive, not "mugen", since her drive is officially called "Install". I wonder what this means, since almost every aspect of her drive seems to have gotten worse. o.o Have we come to any conclusions about how magic charge cancelling is or isn't? That doesn't really seem like a big deal though. >lost< Still, not feeling very thankful for the decision to completely upend the character and turn her into something new. If I wanted an all-new character, I could just pick someone else. :P I apologize, I meant to say "Install" as an abridged "Tsubaki Install", but I guess you guys call it Mugen (you guys and your newfangled terminology). He says 衣 which is the short hand in Japanese for the Mugen super. If you care about my opinion, I think it could be legit in some ways. Taokaka got a nerf in many situational hits, as she can no longer launch standing opponents in EX (5b -> 6a no longer combos on standing opponents) and the way some of her drive attacks hit, but she's still considered a damaging character due to AB2 combos, so... maybe? Edited December 2, 2011 by Xie
pktazn Posted December 2, 2011 Author Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) Oooo if it's about Mugen (get with our lingo son :3) then that definitely makes more sense because Ginseng said he consistently got good damage from it. But again the problem is getting the charges although Mugen does seem to last longer... and it has been used a lot more in Extend than the whole lifetime of CS1 and CS2 combined from what I've seen. I wonder if her D move's proration changes when she's in Mugen? Doesn't change the fact though that the same damage we get from spending our charges and 50 meter other characters reach that same damage meterless... Ah well, that's life. Gonna make this work somehow. EDIT: @Lunar below me: Tsubaki shorthand for her moves is probably one of the most fun to decipher lol. Edited December 2, 2011 by pktazn
LunarSelenia Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) [Edit'd] CA take away primers permanently in the match (X____X;;; that is going to kill me in CSE), Green burst properties are the same, they're just faster if anyone doesn't know yet. Figured I'd put it in there since I didn't realize people still didn't know about the CA changes. Edited December 2, 2011 by LunarSelenia
Kiba Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Interesting (abridged) exchange in the newest Blueraji, I'm not sure how much you trust developers and their thoughts on balance, but here it is: Roughly Translated: Imajin (Tsubaki VA): I've heard Tsubaki was made weak newest version, is that true? Mori: No, she isn't weak. Imajin: Ah, really? There have been letters (to us) about how Tsubaki has gotten so weak she can't really win anymore though. Mori: You just can't use her the same way you used to. Sugita (Ragna VA): Some of her stronger points may have been made worse, but there are other things you can use. Imajin: Ah is that all? So people just haven't studied enough yet? Mori: The hint is the Install, the install yo. Thank you for that Xie. It's all about adaptation really.
TheGreatReptar Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 I don't see how Mori could have thought it was a good idea to center Tsubaki's damage around Mugen. It's like trying to center Ragna's game around landing Blood Kain combos. People are just going to burst out of things to avoid the damage, and they're incredibly easy to burst out of safely since almost all of Tsubaki's install combos that I've seen involve doing 623D. You have to somehow force the opponent to use their bursts before even thinking about doing Mugen combos, since you'll just lose all your charges and 50 meter for trying. They should really make combos during Mugen unburstable or something =\ I still wouldn't say that Tsubaki is back to CS1 status, but she's seems roughly as bad as CS1 Noel. She only gets damage either off of hard to confirm counter hits like 5C and 3C (although 3C doesn't seem hard to confirm) or when she has a bunch of meter and charges laying around. Even then, her damage just seems on par with the rest of the cast.
Daedron Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) I'm grateful that I have a boyfriend who plays BB AND can read Japanese, we've been talking about Tsubaki CSE changes since Beaver posted this thread and Xie's post in our FB BB Community and he got to look at the raws. Apparently he translated this from the wiki, but in the corner, 50% heat. EDIT: This was unclear in the wiki (maybe someone else can figure it out, it's hard because her drive is called INSTALL...and everyone calls Mugen Install mode too...) but he doesn't know if you squeeze all of the D specials with 1 bar of Mugen, or if you need 2 bars when you activate Mugen. I know her Mugen depletes slower, so this is unsure. This probably will have to be tested out when we get the game...) EDIT EDIT: He translated: "About two D moves per 1 lvl of Stock" so I guess below is 3 stock, 2 Bar Mugen, 50% Heat. D風>6C>衣>D槍>D翼>D閃>D剣>2CC>低ダJCC>5B>2C>C閃剣風{>6C>C焔}[4900,{5700}] which is 22D > 6C > Mugen > 623D > j.214D > 236D > 214D > 22C > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2C > 236C 214C 22C (6C > C Super) I don't know how many of you can translate Japanese or not, but This is the JP wiki for CSE Tsubaki. If there's something you find that want translated, send it to me and I can try and have him translate it for me. He likes doing this kind of stuff. Especially with all of her D Specials in Kanji...ahahahaha there's only so much even I can translate or make out of this. >>;;;;; X___X;;; . Uhmm, you sure that is the CS EX wiki, looks like the CS2 one to me since it shows DP whiff combos and all? Not to mention, in that combo you posted, apparently 6C - super adds 800 damage (from 4.9K to 5.7K). the super in CSEX does 440 (something like that) so unless 6C adds THAT much that late in the combo there is just NO WAY that's even possible. Brb, going to test to make sure. EDIT: Yup, definately CS2 combo ;p EDIT2: It does seem the Wiki has some frame data about CS EX Tsubaki though, nothing about on block values etc but it does show proration values. List of things that make me lift a brow: P1 values for starting with D moves are HEAVILY nerfed, in my opinion almost making them worthless to try and use as combo starters. Just a comparison: 5A Proration values: P1: 100 and P2: 82. 214D proration values: P1: 80 P2: 92. The P1 value of 214D was 100 in CS2 just for comparison's sakes, it was the highest starter next to 5C. From what I can tell (theoryfighting here) you would get about the same or maybe MORE damage out of a 5A starter than you would out of a 214D starter... I have no idea what the hell they were thinking considering how high risk using 214D is now, having it IB'ed is a free punish for your opponent, getting a 5A seems a lot easier in my eyes. Sure, 214D lifts them up into the air ready for an IAD combo, something you would only be able to achieve off a 5A starter with using 22D and 236D mid-screen, though only 22D would be enough in the corner. Anyways, moving on: 22D starter has worse proration than a 5B starter. 3C proration values: 80 and 92, worse than a 5B starter but the FC property might off-set that...but! 3CC has a 120% bonus proration, but is it worth it considering we need to rapid to continue the combo? I can see some pretty interesting combos happening if you manage to hit the 3C as FC though, for sure. Mugen increases (read: improves) the P2 values on D moves...but the kicker here is that these P2 values are the CS2 values we have right now...except for 1 tiny bit, using j.236D - j.214D (and passing through the light ball) gives you 110% bonus proration. Couple this with using 3CC in there, and maybe we can actually achieve higher damage than we could in CS2...but at the cost of more resources to CS2, at least the options are there to do so. Extend...HURRY UP ALREADY (2 more weeks!) EDIT3: Something I overlooked, the repeat values for D moves during Mugen has been HEAVILY IMPROVED. From going to 50% repeat to 85-ish...this is a HUGE improvement and obviously, with a 5 charge mugen, 6C starter, j.236D - j.214D 110% bonus proration and 3CC 120% bonus proration I can actually see some very funny stuff happening, though maybe it's better to not do the 3CC - rapid and use it on the 5 charge D super at the end instead. But like I said before, what's the chance of all that happening in a real match? not to mention: bursts... Edited December 2, 2011 by Daedron
Errol Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 EDIT: Yup, definately CS2 combo ;p lollllll.. hilarious
LunarSelenia Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) LOL thanks for clearing that up for me. =3 Not looking forward to using Mugen in the first place but X__X;; thanks for pointing that out for me. EDIT: Changed my post anyway, sorry for earlier. I'm doing 100 things atm while still trying to look up BB stuff =3 Edited December 2, 2011 by LunarSelenia
Daedron Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 It's alright, thanks for the link in any case. It doesn't seem to have CS EX combos yet, but look at my edited post above, some interesting tidbits I managed to get out of it =)
LunarSelenia Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 It's alright, thanks for the link in any case. It doesn't seem to have CS EX combos yet, but look at my edited post above, some interesting tidbits I managed to get out of it =) Oooh thanks Daedron. Interesting stuff (Still OTL a bit reading it) but can't wait until CSE is released so we can grab more info.
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