[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[ShelledMenace]

I just started to use (and am trying to get good with lolnothappening) Tsoobaki, but all those changes, maybe aside from the B *series* projectile invuln, seem completely reasonable to me lol. Actually, those would be awesome changes ; x ;

[Adelheid]

Make 3C and 3CC jump cancellable

But don't take away fatal counter or bonus proration

Only change you need

[Kiba]

I can only imagine the sheer amount of players spamming 3C© if it was jump cancellable.

It would be too good imo.

[Daedron]

BB3 wishlist:

no CH state on charging

no landing recovery on j.D

5b buff.

22x P1 buff.

j.236x/j.214x are overheads!

B series projectile invulnerability.

Done!

Agree with all except j.214x series being overheads.

a TK'ed j.214D is a 12 frame overhead in that case...with very good proration to boot.

They could make it so after x amount of active frames have passed, the move turns into an overhead.

[pktazn]

I'm ok with charging being in a CH state actually. All the other moves in the game, when you use them, put the character in a CH state so why shouldn't Tsubaki's charging?

She needs some help for her neutral game though so I'd be ok with any changes that would help that.

Merged post:

Found out something interesting while testing out moves to update the guide since Grendy asked about breaking/piercing projectiles in the Simple Q&A thread and I haven't seen it brought up before.

A/B/C versions of our DP can neutralize projectiles, timed correctly of course. I tested it on Jin's ice swords and Lambda's 5D.

EDIT: It's because they're all lvl 1 projectiles, which explains why the D version doesn't work it but I never knew so I found it interesting haha~ Feel free to call me silly for not knowing it because I honestly didn't.

Edited April 1, 2012 by pktazn
Merged my two posts together and fixed information

[Errol]

Agree with all except j.214x series being overheads.

a TK'ed j.214D is a 12 frame overhead in that case...with very good proration to boot.

They could make it so after x amount of active frames have passed, the move turns into an overhead.

Yeah, or just make it so the D version is an exception. j.214x actually are very good starters too though, like 3.5k or something if you go into an IAD combo in the corner.

I'm ok with charging being in a CH state actually. All the other moves in the game, when you use them, put the character in a CH state so why shouldn't Tsubaki's charging?

She needs some help for her neutral game though so I'd be ok with any changes that would help that.

The CH thing is really annoying. We didn't have it in BBCS1, and charging has been fairly nerfed since CS2.. It sucks because some characters can get some really hard punishes from full screen because of the CH status. Seems to make sense to me because charging is not in any way an attack so.. "Counter" hit?

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nice jubei/kokonoe gameplay BJ.

Indeed but I started importing games a loooong time ago. Europe I swear...

Can't be that expensive to import from the US though huh?

Edited April 1, 2012 by Errol

[Airk]

I would be okay with keeping the CH state on charging IFF (Formal logic!) they give us a charge method that doesn't have any recovery on it. It can still be 18 frame minimum duration, so that charge cancels don't get better (though I think it would be nice if they WERE A little better, because right now I feel they're pretty iffy and only "good" because our pressure is otherwise not very good.) but it should end as soon as you let go of the dang button, or at least, no more than like 2 frames afterwards. 2D seems like the natural choice for this, but I don't really care, they can give us a special 4D or something if they feel they have to.

I think 3C© being jump cancellable on block would make Tsubaki stupid, because it would basically be a very safe, long ranged, brutal starter and we'd have very little disincentive to spam it all over the place. This would make CS2 236C look gimp by comparison, IMHO. If you make it jump cancellable on hit only, it would be a nice change, but not really a big balance boost.

I'm still impossibly vexed about our lack of plus frames moves; Heck, Hazama has like 5 moves with plus frames (5B, 2A, 6B, Jakou, Ressenga) that even have built in mixup, and he's not just a short range pressure character, nor is he dependent on a special gauge for any of it. Us having one option for extending pressure (aside from hoping our opponent doesn't jab us out of a charge cancel, because at best we are even on that) forces us to play our newly nerfed neutral game a LOT. There need to be ways to spend charge safely for pressure and neutral. Bring back CS2 level frame advantage on D moves, (Or if you want to be silly, bring back CS1 level frame advantage on 214D :P) return 5B or 2A to CS2 frame advantage, and I'd say we're good.

[Errol]

I don't need frame advantage on 236D, or 22D. I would like for 236D>22D to be tighter so that we can punish people for mashing there, or for 22A to have better P1 (like CS2) and/or less disadvantage so that it really wouldn't ever be punishable on block or on IB, because that IS tight but does low damage.

[Ginseng]

Regarding the guide, you guys might want to make a disclaimer saying that I don't work on it anymore, etc. Like make it clear that you two edited it.

Off-topic: Seems like people have been creating a lot of new threads lately! I have never seen that much use of moderator power in these forums since...ever!

[pktazn]

But your original guide was the basis for it all so I still think you deserve credit.

Also I hope they enjoyed April Fool's lol.

[Ginseng]

Ehhh that was back in CS1 though. I didn't do much of it during CS2 and none of it in extend lol. :D Oh I'm actually on MSN and skype for once if people want to talk.

[Kiba]

Regarding the guide, you guys might want to make a disclaimer saying that I don't work on it anymore, etc. Like make it clear that you two edited it.

Off-topic: Seems like people have been creating a lot of new threads lately! I have never seen that much use of moderator power in these forums since...ever!

I agree with PK that you deserve credit. I only didn't place my name in the edits because I was not completely sure if you wondered why I edited your post. I can see why that is relevant though so I can go back and make the adjustments. You're still getting credited though whether you like it or not!

And I didn't realise we had a lot of spoiled brats here.

[redsilversnake]

I would be okay with keeping the CH state on charging IFF (Formal logic!) they give us a charge method that doesn't have any recovery on it. It can still be 18 frame minimum duration, so that charge cancels don't get better (though I think it would be nice if they WERE A little better, because right now I feel they're pretty iffy and only "good" because our pressure is otherwise not very good.) but it should end as soon as you let go of the dang button, or at least, no more than like 2 frames afterwards. 2D seems like the natural choice for this, but I don't really care, they can give us a special 4D or something if they feel they have to.

Hmm, I dunno. Looking at some of the matches in the video thread, it doesn't seem too bad. 'Course, if it were me, I'd just slightly reduce 5C and/or 5CC's frame disadvantage, as recovery on 5/2D seems fine enough.

I think 3C© being jump cancellable on block would make Tsubaki stupid, because it would basically be a very safe, long ranged, brutal starter and we'd have very little disincentive to spam it all over the place. This would make CS2 236C look gimp by comparison, IMHO. If you make it jump cancellable on hit only, it would be a nice change, but not really a big balance boost.

They could just remove the bonus proration on 3CC and the FC property on 3C. Hell, they could even give the latter mediocre proration. It likely wouldn't stop spamming, but it at least wouldn't be "stupid."

I'm still impossibly vexed about our lack of plus frames moves; Heck, Hazama has like 5 moves with plus frames (5B, 2A, 6B, Jakou, Ressenga) that even have built in mixup, and he's not just a short range pressure character, nor is he dependent on a special gauge for any of it. Us having one option for extending pressure (aside from hoping our opponent doesn't jab us out of a charge cancel, because at best we are even on that) forces us to play our newly nerfed neutral game a LOT. There need to be ways to spend charge safely for pressure and neutral. Bring back CS2 level frame advantage on D moves, (Or if you want to be silly, bring back CS1 level frame advantage on 214D :P) return 5B or 2A to CS2 frame advantage, and I'd say we're good.

It's Jabaki, not Jakou. Jakou is for combos, not pressure.

But yeah, Tsubaki does need better tools for pressure. Maybe not necessarily as good as in CS2, but frame advantage on moves other than 6B would be nice.

[Airk]

Hmm, I dunno. Looking at some of the matches in the video thread, it doesn't seem too bad. 'Course, if it were me, I'd just slightly reduce 5C and/or 5CC's frame disadvantage, as recovery on 5/2D seems fine enough.

Eh; I'm okay with the 5C/5CC frame disadvantage; I don't think there's really any value in changing it - if they change it to be neutral or plus, it would be crazy strong, and if they change it to be "just slightly negative" or worse, nothing really changes because that's what we have now with charge cancel.

They could just remove the bonus proration on 3CC and the FC property on 3C. Hell, they could even give the latter mediocre proration. It likely wouldn't stop spamming, but it at least wouldn't be "stupid."

I don't think you'd want to do this without giving us some new source of actual damage, because removing this proration tears the guts out of our most damaging non-mugen combos. (22D > 3CC > RC > stuff) I guess you could nerf the P1 values, but repurposing this from what it is now to a CS1 style "low poke" sort of move is a lateral change IMHO - some good things come of it, but you lose some stuff. I don't think sacrificing our best damage for a neutral tool is a good way forward, no matter how badly we need another tool at neutral.

It's Jabaki, not Jakou. Jakou is for combos, not pressure.

Right, sorry. Stupid J-name attacks. x.x

But yeah, Tsubaki does need better tools for pressure. Maybe not necessarily as good as in CS2, but frame advantage on moves other than 6B would be nice.

I've yet to be convinced that there was anything that needed changing from CS2 to EX other than the proration changes that lowered our damage. It's not like our pressure was stupid back then.

[redsilversnake]

Eh; I'm okay with the 5C/5CC frame disadvantage; I don't think there's really any value in changing it - if they change it to be neutral or plus, it would be crazy strong, and if they change it to be "just slightly negative" or worse, nothing really changes because that's what we have now with charge cancel.

Hence why I only said, "slightly reduce." 5C could be -7 or -8 instead of -9, and 5CC could be -10 or -9 instead of -11. This would give CCs off of either actual frame advantage.

I don't think you'd want to do this without giving us some new source of actual damage, because removing this proration tears the guts out of our most damaging non-mugen combos. (22D > 3CC > RC > stuff) I guess you could nerf the P1 values, but repurposing this from what it is now to a CS1 style "low poke" sort of move is a lateral change IMHO - some good things come of it, but you lose some stuff. I don't think sacrificing our best damage for a neutral tool is a good way forward, no matter how badly we need another tool at neutral.

Well, obviously, such a change wouldn't be the only one. To make up for the loss of a proration bonus, P1 on other moves could get buffed so that her general damage increases.

I've yet to be convinced that there was anything that needed changing from CS2 to EX other than the proration changes that lowered our damage. It's not like our pressure was stupid back then.

Says you. I could keep people locked down for days back then.

Anyway, I can actually see why they'd reduce 5B's SD; it's just that the way they went about nerfing it was dumb.

[BatousaiJ]

I was playing Din's and Omni's Haku a bit today and I was raped by the 2CC second hit whiffing over and over again in multiple scenarios.

I knew about that previously but it's just so very hard to take notice and adjust on the fly in the heat of the moment.

Is the 2CC problem an issue against anyone else in the game or is it only Haku?

As for changes, I've already posted what I think about that so you can just look that up.

[Airk]

Hence why I only said, "slightly reduce." 5C could be -7 or -8 instead of -9, and 5CC could be -10 or -9 instead of -11. This would give CCs off of either actual frame advantage.

Actually, no it would not - that's not how charge cancel works. The plusness or minusness of a move has no real bearing on it once you charge cancel. A move could be -100 and if it's a level 4 attack, charge cancelling it would make it even in block, because charge cancelling replaces the recovery of the move with a charge. The only way to change how plus we are on charge cancelling 5C© is to either: A) Improve charge cancelling overall by reducing the minimum charge duration (Dangerous, because it improves everything that you charge cancel) or B) Increase the attack level of those moves - this is why 5C is actually WORSE on charge cancel than it was in CS2, because they made it a level 3 attack instead of level 4. Increasing the attack level of the moves also changes their blockstun under non-charge cancel circumstances (reducing the gap between it and followup specials or 6B, for example) and also the amount of hitstun it inflicts. This is a less radical change, but still not without consequences.

All changing the recovery of 5C© does is make those moves a little bit less bad if you whiff them, or if you for some reason decide to end a blockstring with them without charge cancelling.

Well, obviously, such a change wouldn't be the only one. To make up for the loss of a proration bonus, P1 on other moves could get buffed so that her general damage increases.

Sure, but at that point you talking about a much wider sweep of changes, that's all. If you're trying to give us an idea of what you actually want for the character, you can't propose a far-reaching change and then not address the consequences.

Says you. I could keep people locked down for days back then.

Then you must be better than Konan.

Anyway, I can actually see why they'd reduce 5B's SD; it's just that the way they went about nerfing it was dumb.

Feel free to elaborate on this, because I don't even know what you mean by "5B's SD". o.o

[Errol]

I'd like 5B back to CS 2 status(kinda necessary to play footsie well since mashing her gatliings without knowing you confirmed a hit/block is really bad) and the D variations of the moves to have more benefits like + advantage in frames on certain ones and better proration since it's a tool we need to work to gain access to. I want 2C anti air to auto correct a little better as it gets crossed over all the time.

I'd also like 236236C to be not so useless as it's now the worst DD in the game(I can't think of one that's worse off the top of my head atm).

I want a new DD that fills up a few charges instantly(maybe 3?) that you can use in the middle of a combo as that will dynamically change combo paths with meter just like Mugen does now and make her more flexible and viable in match ups where getting a charge is bloody difficulty.

Giving her those things still won't make her S tier, just more balanced and suited in most match ups.

here

[Airk]

BJ is smart. I endorse his ideas.

Though I also miss 2A being good.

[Daedron]

Overhead that uses charge, kthx.

And leads into 4.5K on normal hit in the corner...cause that's what Ragna can do off of Gauntlet hades ;p. (this is not serious, 3K is fine :V)

[Errol]

Overhead that uses charge, kthx.

And leads into 4.5K on normal hit in the corner...cause that's what Ragna can do off of Gauntlet hades ;p. (this is not serious, 3K is fine :V)

but you thumbs downed j.214D overhead!

[Daedron]

but you thumbs downed j.214D overhead!

Cause a 12 frame overhead is the same as a 20-21 frame overhead now is it? :V

[Adelheid]

smh at people who took my 3CC buff comment seriously

[Errol]

Cause a 12 frame overhead is the same as a 20-21 frame overhead now is it? :V

it would go well with Heidi's jump cancellable 3C!

[Kiba]

The opponent will have no reason to block low after a jump cancellable 3C....