BatousaiJ Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 6A has some awful proration so you can't get that much damage off of it with any particular combo for you can break 3k if you use 1 charge mugen I think compared to doing like 2.2k or something like that. I also like doing 5C CH > 6CC(standard punish) into 1-2 charge mugen and I don't need to remind people you can do well over 5k using 6CC > 1 Charge Mugen if you can catch them after a guard break or punishing a long recovery move like a DP.
Errol Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 5C CH > 6CC into mugen is good damage (and this is what I've used mugen for so far, besides random 5a5cc hits), but I think you can get really damn close to it with other combos.. I don't have numbers right now though.
Kiba Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) 6A has some awful proration so you can't get that much damage off of it with any particular combo for you can break 3k if you use 1 charge mugen I think compared to doing like 2.2k or something like that. Mugen on 6A isn't worth it imo, not even on FC. I was trying to see if I could extend combos with stock with 6A and I just couldn't do it. In the end you're gonna use the same combo which gives you 3.2k. You get 2.7k midscreen and 2.8k in the corner with one stock normally though. That's not too shabby. Edited March 11, 2012 by Kiba
BatousaiJ Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 6A FC > 5CC > 6CC > 236C > 214A > dash 5C > 2C > 236C> 214C > 22C is decent damage and meter gain for no charges but ya, 6A proration is pretty ass, you're better off comboing off of 5A rather than that.
Errol Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 well, 6a FC is definitely bad, I was just thinking about on NORMAL 6A hits. on FC, you can do 6CC>214D and that beats out mugen. 6A>5CC>6BB>xCCC is the typical and that's not veyr high damage. 1 charge mugen .. something like 6a>5cc>214214D>623D etc> 6CC>xBBB? just figuring, the best places for mugen are the places where you can't really combo well normally..
BatousaiJ Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 Adding 6BB would actually decrease the overall damage of the combo at that point I think, it's better to do 6A > 5CC > Mugen or 6A > 5CC > 6B > Mugen if you're going to do it. I'm not sure why you would consider something so BnB as 5A > 5CC as a "place where you can't really combo well normally". You can do combos off that just fine using DP whiff against most characters, it just happens mugen is the better choice at that point.
Errol Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 I get so tired of typing combo notation, sorry. I did mean to use 6a>5cc>214214D>etc.. I was just saying instead of (usual 6a, non ch combo, which does involve 6bb) You can do combos off 5a5cc, but it seems to me that those combos are significantly less optimal than mugen. Your other options - Dp whiff into j236D stuff, aren't that great. I mean, there's a bigger gain from mugen'ing there, when you can't do a 6c - you can't do a 214D (well I guess you could 5a5c2c214d, but that's tight on range), you can't stick in a 3cc rapid, you can't do an IAD combo... etc.. If you can stick that stuff in early on you don't get as much from using the mugen. Which is why 6bb>mugen looked really attractive to me. combo options off 6bb hits are jack, but you're up to 4k with mugen.
Airk Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 I heard someone mention an idea that I thought would be good for making Arakune less painful to fight against - remove primer breaking during curse. It's not like his curse damage and mixup aren't already insane, so how about we don't punish people for bursting to try to avoid curse? As for Mugen, it's only looks good as a 50 heat option because, frankly, our other super sucks just that much. Aside from the good amount of invulnerability on C version, it's probably one of the worst supers in the game, and features inexplicably bad minimum damage. If this super were any good, Mugen would be less competitive because, frankly, throwing an (unburstable) super on the end of a combo for 800-1000 damage is better than getting 800-1000 damage by burning your extra charges AND having to do it while the combo is still burstable. You'll note that NONE of the characters with a "mode super" use them frequently, even though I would argue that both Blood Kain and Real Mugen are better than Tsubaki's install super. (FRKZ doesn't really count, because it lasts forever.). Things that might improve this super would be (Note: These are just ideas, and I'm not really sure which one/combination would produce a balanced result): Minimum damage on D moves. D moves become unburstable. Mugen is fixed duration regardless of number of charges (But 236236D still only does damage for the number of charges you had when you started). Mugen 'shuts off' immediately if you are hit (saving your charges, but not your heat.). Mugen drains the gauge slower (Reduce gauge drain from 100pts per frame to 80 or so?). I'm not convinced there is a good halfway mark for moves like this - if there is Arksys hasn't made any effort to find it. Regardless, basing a character's game around something like this as Mori-san seems to be implying is a terrible idea.
BatousaiJ Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 Which is why 6bb>mugen looked really attractive to me. combo options off 6bb hits are jack, but you're up to 4k with mugen. You're right about Mugen being nice in situations where you can't normally combo off of and I think 6BB is a good example. Others would be like cross over j.C or rather most air hits which you can confirm into something worthwhile like j.214D > 236D > 214D/22D > IAD and etc. Plainly speaking, with the use of Mugen, Tsubaki has some of the best damage potential and corner carry mid screen and considering how our overall damage has decreased, that's something I take advantage of when I see the opportunity. Mugen use is largely match up oriented just like charge use though and you'll learn that it's more practical/effective in some match ups vs others. That comes with experience though so you'll see.
Kiba Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 Things that might improve this super would be (Note: These are just ideas, and I'm not really sure which one/combination would produce a balanced result): Minimum damage on D moves. D moves become unburstable. Mugen is fixed duration regardless of number of charges (But 236236D still only does damage for the number of charges you had when you started). Mugen 'shuts off' immediately if you are hit (saving your charges, but not your heat.). Mugen drains the gauge slower (Reduce gauge drain from 100pts per frame to 80 or so?). I'm not convinced there is a good halfway mark for moves like this - if there is Arksys hasn't made any effort to find it. Regardless, basing a character's game around something like this as Mori-san seems to be implying is a terrible idea. They already made mugen good by increasing the damage and the proration of her D specials, and also by giving j.236D - j.214D 110% bonus proration. That plus the minimum damage on D moves is overkill, and not being able to burst makes their death very certain. In addition, mugen draining the gauge slower will just give us guys the opportunity to inflict even more damage than necessary. It shutting off immediately on hit just makes it so that they cant use it outside of combos, or have to be cautious with the combos they use but that's not a big issue since 623D - j.236D - j.214D can easily be repeated. That wouldn't make it balanced at all tbh. It would just make Tsubaki's mugen broken.
EXonestar Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 I heard someone mention an idea that I thought would be good for making Arakune less painful to fight against - remove primer breaking during curse. It's not like his curse damage and mixup aren't already insane, so how about we don't punish people for bursting to try to avoid curse? As for Mugen, it's only looks good as a 50 heat option because, frankly, our other super sucks just that much. Aside from the good amount of invulnerability on C version, it's probably one of the worst supers in the game, and features inexplicably bad minimum damage. If this super were any good, Mugen would be less competitive because, frankly, throwing an (unburstable) super on the end of a combo for 800-1000 damage is better than getting 800-1000 damage by burning your extra charges AND having to do it while the combo is still burstable. You'll note that NONE of the characters with a "mode super" use them frequently, even though I would argue that both Blood Kain and Real Mugen are better than Tsubaki's install super. (FRKZ doesn't really count, because it lasts forever.). Things that might improve this super would be (Note: These are just ideas, and I'm not really sure which one/combination would produce a balanced result): Minimum damage on D moves. D moves become unburstable. Mugen is fixed duration regardless of number of charges (But 236236D still only does damage for the number of charges you had when you started). Mugen 'shuts off' immediately if you are hit (saving your charges, but not your heat.). Mugen drains the gauge slower (Reduce gauge drain from 100pts per frame to 80 or so?). I'm not convinced there is a good halfway mark for moves like this - if there is Arksys hasn't made any effort to find it. Regardless, basing a character's game around something like this as Mori-san seems to be implying is a terrible idea. Not to be rude but do you wana break Tsubaki?
pktazn Posted March 11, 2012 Author Posted March 11, 2012 I don't know why people keep trying to push for mugen to be unburstable. Any other move that is similar that was brought up like Hakumen's Mugen and Ragna's Blood Kain you can burst out of and Ragna is in a far worse state if you burst him and keep him off than if you burst out of Tsubaki Mugen. Why do we need it to save charges? It's not like we can't get them back at any time of the match and her charging speed really isn't that bad, which is one of the few lessons they've learned from CS1.
Errol Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) TBH, I don't want mugen to be unburstable, but I think it'd be reasonable to be able to stop mugen by charging in the middle of it. If they burst your 5 charge mugen combo, then you can tap 5d and have 3 probably 4 charges instead of soon to be 0. That or cancel mugen if you get hit? not burst safe, but you don't lose as much. note that the point of 'mugen deactivates if you get hit' would be that a green burst is a hit. Don't know if it's a good idea. Either would have problems if you intended to use mugen in neutral.. but mugen seems to only get used in combos anyway. Beats me. some comparison points 5c>6cc>Mugen>D DP crap> IAD crap > ground ender > 5290 *max damage, burst = minimal damage, good chunk of charge drains off if you mugened with more than 1 charge* 5c>6cc>214d>3cc>RC> IAD crap > ground ender > 4708 *if they burst after 3cc RC, you've already done a substantial amount of damage.. if they burst before it, you only lost one charge, no heat* 5c>6cc>214d> IAD crap > ground ender > 6c > distortion > 4605 *don't need to get any heat until the very end, kills oki, but probably done as a kill combo* 6bb> mugen> reaches 4k. not going to get close to that with 1 charge and 50 heat without using mugen. the alternatives for 5c punish combos are fairly close. Edited March 11, 2012 by Errol
BatousaiJ Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 5c>6cc>Mugen>D DP crap> IAD crap > ground ender > 5290 *max damage, burst = minimal damage, good chunk of charge drains off if you mugened with more than 1 charge* 5c>6cc>214d>3cc>RC> IAD crap > ground ender > 4708 *if they burst after 3cc RC, you've already done a substantial amount of damage.. if they burst before it, you only lost one charge, no heat* 5c>6cc>214d> IAD crap > ground ender > 6c > distortion > 4605 *don't need to get any heat until the very end, kills oki, but probably done as a kill combo* 6bb> mugen> reaches 4k. not going to get close to that with 1 charge and 50 heat without using mugen. the alternatives for 5c punish combos are fairly close. You're falling into the trappings of the 1 charge 3D series problem I made that video about Error. If you do the 1 charge mugen combo correctly landing all 3 hits of 623D and keeping proration of orb the damage becomes 5C > 6CC > 1 Charge Mugen > 623D > j.236D > j.214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2CC > 236C > 214C > 22C - 5522 That's more than 800 damage than the 1 charge combo you listed and last time I checked, that's quite a significant difference. Not to mention 5C > 6CC > 214D will drop versus many characters forcing you to do 5C CH > 6C > 214D for that combo which makes the damage even less.... As for the whole unburstable thing, I'm not going to bother even entertaining such a silly proposition so I'll leave it at that.
Airk Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 They already made mugen good by increasing the damage and the proration of her D specials, and also by giving j.236D - j.214D 110% bonus proration. That plus the minimum damage on D moves is overkill, and not being able to burst makes their death very certain. In addition, mugen draining the gauge slower will just give us guys the opportunity to inflict even more damage than necessary. Right now, it's not really that good - if we had a super with decent minimum damage that we could put on the end of combos, we'd be ignoring all this 1 charge mugen stuff because it'd be safer and easier and use fewer resources to just do a normal combo with a super ender. That's not what I'd call "good". It shutting off immediately on hit just makes it so that they cant use it outside of combos, or have to be cautious with the combos they use but that's not a big issue since 623D - j.236D - j.214D can easily be repeated. I... don't understand what you're saying here. The gist was that if you got hit while in Mugen (like, say, by a burst) you'd stop losing your charges. No one uses Mugen outside of combos anyway, really, and even if they did, it'd still be valuable for it to shut off on hit. That wouldn't make it balanced at all tbh. It would just make Tsubaki's mugen broken. Disagree. It needs to be a LOT better than it is now before it approaches broken status, IMHO. Right now it's "worthwhile only because we don't have a better option for heat -> damage"
BatousaiJ Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 I forgot to mention that another upside of Mugen is the ability to make use of charge that isn't a whole number. A combo you can do off 1 charge mugen is different from what you can do off 1.75 or even 1.25 and so on. Outside of mugen, you are unable to use charges that are not fully stocked making scenarios where you're able to do a great deal of damage using 1.75 charges of mugen which otherwise would've completely paled in comparison to what you might've been able to do with 1 charge in the same scenario without it. Round and around... and around....
Errol Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 You're falling into the trappings of the 1 charge 3D series problem I made that video about Error. Jerk~ That's true but I probably won't be able to time it 'like a boss' consistently. Tell me what you would do with extra half charges and junk to improve a mugen combo though. From my look at mugen combos, tacking on a 214D or something prorates to the point where you can't do an IAD anymore and doesn't really gain you much (anything?). I'm sincerely asking for help.
Kiba Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) I don't even know what to say at this point anymore. In the end I can't let something like that be ignored because the likely case is that it'll continue to happen unless you put a stop to it. The situation is unfortunately how Batousai illustrated it. It's like, stuff can go in one ear and come out the other. Most of the claims grow tiring to see over and over again. I only deliberately respond to you because I'm trying to help you and make you understand rather than ignoring you. Airk, buy the game please. I'm begging you. I'm not saying stop posting, but rather be careful with what you're saying. As Bat put it most of the points are not valid because you don't have the game, and are basing it on theoretical stuff. Not being able to burst while in mugen doesn't even sound like Blazblue anymore, and makes me cringe. You're a cool guy, but PK has told you, Bat has told, and unfortunately I'm telling you right now to stop basing things solely on theoretical things without any experience of the game. Edited March 11, 2012 by Kiba
Airk Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 When I can get it used, I'll buy it. That's all there is to it right now. It's not like I'm the only one suggesting this stuff.
pktazn Posted March 12, 2012 Author Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) It's more of this same kind of discussion happens every month phrased differently ever so slightly and it feels like we're just going in huge roundabout circles trying to change something we all know we have no control over. All we can really do is work with what we have at this point and hope Arcsys learned something. Edited March 12, 2012 by pktazn
TheGreatReptar Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) >Oooo, new BB-related discussion >Discussions of Airk theory fighting Edited March 12, 2012 by TheGreatReptar
Errol Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 Maybe I'm expecting too much out of additional charge in mugen. I'll get like 6200 on a 1 charge mugen combo, and then 6500 on a 2-3 charge mugen.
pktazn Posted March 12, 2012 Author Posted March 12, 2012 6.2k off one charge in Mugen really isn't that bad if you think about it lol. You can easily get that one charge back and using the 50 heat is basically the equivalent of using our super back in CS2 but unlike then, depending on how you ended the Mugen combo, it can leave you in a better position. Using 2+ charges as Batousai showed earlier, helps us to be more consistent in our damage output.
BatousaiJ Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 Jerk~ That's true but I probably won't be able to time it 'like a boss' consistently. Tell me what you would do with extra half charges and junk to improve a mugen combo though. From my look at mugen combos, tacking on a 214D or something prorates to the point where you can't do an IAD anymore and doesn't really gain you much (anything?). I'm sincerely asking for help. It's quite simple- A 1.15 mugen activation basically guarantees you'll get the full 3D series proration with almost no attention to timing. 1.25 ish should give full proration and addition D move use like for example a 22D at the end. Lets look at some combos off a BnB starter... Mid Screen to Corner 5A > 5CC > 1.25 Charge Mugen > 623D(3 hits) > j.236D > j.214D > 22D(far bounce, can 5D charge for a moment if you wish) > dash 6CC > 236C > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22B(charged). - 4824 damage 35 heat gain after mugen activation and full untechable knockdown where you'll be able to recover about 1 charge during that time. That little .25 charge adds that flexibility of timing for the full effect of the 3D series along with adding that last 22D which allows you can get about 300 more damage on that combo. Given I already pointed out that the mugen combo was the obvious choice for maximum efficient use of charge and meter at the time, the none whole number charge counts in mugen state adds another variability where you can milk just a little bit more out of it for even greater efficiency. Hope that makes sense.
Errol Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 Yeah, that does. Thanks. Feels like there are so many combo variations to remember.. I *think* that off some starters you can't get the full 6cc but you can get a full IAD. and off 6cc, you can throw in a 214D and still get a full IAD combo. I need to check some more. Similarly, so many combos, have to remember which specific ones allow for a 236C > 5C extension at the end. Although I find 22C > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22B extensions easier...
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