[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[zaeris]

It's kinda impossible for ragna to mash 5b after ct if you're 3+ since they will need to barrier block

10 - 3 : 7 so basic tsubaki 5b is faster than ragna 5b by one frame since his is 8frames even if data calculate ct on block base on barrier it would 0.

5c is a good button and option are not that bad and beside range and distance, if people mash like your ragna scenario here you would get a rather fat combo if he button. Since that is sure to beat 6frAme 5a.

The real draw back of ct isn't on block but start up since that is where you can be punished.

Edit

Wiki says it's calculated on barrier block so tsuabki ct is 2+ on barrier block

Against ragna 5b it is even depends so who ever mash faster wins, will need to look at hit box to see if it trades lol

5c would win clearly since 8 - 2 means it be the same as a 6 frame move in 0+\- block.

[Zouf]

6C > 421A is fairly good too. It's positive on block (especially if barrier blocked) and ressource free

[Kiba]

5CC > 421A blockstring can avoid DPs with the right spacing. If it's blocked you can try to continue pressure but you have to be quite fast. Ragna's 5B caught me slippin'. Followup Dash 5CC is good for those who try to press buttons or jump out. So far Svamparn and I are compiling a list of things which can beat 5CC > 421A:

 

• Kokonoe - 3C or Teleport
• Mu-12 - 5C or 6C if done from max range. Both can trade but 6C will give her a combo
• Any reversal which includes some kinda of forward rush such as Bang's daifunka or Valkenhayn's Sturm wolf
• Carl - 236A Vivace
• Noel - 4D trades sometimes. May be a matter of timing
• Hazama - Houtenjin causes a trade. You need to do max range 5CC > 421A for it to whiff.
• Izayoi - Gain Art 3C
• Nu-13 - 3C

I'm not gonna include a full list, but basically certain normals and reversals can get around it so try not to abuse it.

 

6C (barrier blocked) > 421A. The fireball can help to evade some DPs except Litchi, Ragna, Kagura and Jin's D DP. Ofc Azrael can just growler it lol.

 

Credits to Svamparn for this.

 

Also, 22D > 421A oki still works but you need to very slightly delay 421A.

 

6C > Blade super is still useful for catching people out as they can't mash out of the startup.

 

I'll be getting all of this into the strategy guide.

[chzchan]

Also, 22D > 421A oki still works but you need to very slightly delay 421A.

 

Is this a max charge 22D to get the wallbounce? I haven't heard of this before.

[Kiba]

Mhm It's been in the strategy guide for a long time.

 

Yeah it needs to be a full charge 22D although I was specifically referring to the corner, so you may not have to at times. I also need to test whether the oki is better midscreen. It doesn't seem like the opponent can roll back and then jump out like they used to. Will edit this post.

 

Edit: Yeah they can't jump out. So it's a little more useful midscreen.

[chzchan]

Oh, I guess I knew about its existence in the corner already. I remember seeing it in the guide. Since you didn't specifically state corner, I thought it was some new anywhere-on-the-screen fireball oki that we could do that somehow didn't involve 6C.

 

What exactly does it have over the other chargless corner okis that already exist?

[zaeris]

I guess this might have been mention but the mid screen dp whiff has some great potential for mix up.

Your backs towards concern some non meter combo into Oki 5bb> 5cc > 236c j214b whiff> Land 5a>2c>236b214b>22b whiff

The next part is quite interesting

Near corner 5c 2cc 7236a standard j236a oki or

Full screen away 5c 2cc 9jc j236a j214 this gives you the lowest point for j214a to hit sending Them flying and air forward tech to ground then you simply air ash jc or air air dash jcc on a grounded opponent or an advantage vs a air Tech recovery air dash opponent. This should put you near corner with a jc hit into something like 5b5c or 5cc 22d. Guess I should see if it's truely safe perhaps not. Lol.

Edit

Seems like its works better if opponent forward tech. A neutral or back tech would make avoids this, guess will test further

[Zouf]

Btw people can jump out between 5CC > 421A, so it's not so good unless the opponent blocks it (and is in corner)

[chzchan]

If you feel that people are getting wary of your charge cancels to reset pressure or if your opponent doesn't have a meterless reversal and you expect them to always mash out of everything, is DP out of a pressure reset a good idea?

It has better range than most of the attacks I can think of using and the invulnerable startup makes it essentially just as useful as a light attack, but without having to dash in.

I've been able to catch people pretty often with this, though it gets destroyed by characters that have superior DPs. It really keeps people blocking after 6Bs and charge cancels so they can attempt at punishing the DP which allows me to sneak in grabs and command grabs more often.

[Airk]

Er, I mean it works if you KNOW they're going to mash, but the risk/reward is pretty awful unless it's going to win you the round.  I mean, you can hit with like 5 DPs and then they decide not to mash and get a 5k punish combo on you and who's laughing now?

[chzchan]

No but that's the point. I'd do it as early as possible in a round if I experienced them mashing out of my sort pieces of block threads then not go for it a second time. If my trust in them to learn from their mistakes is correct, then I just won't DP after that again.

[zaeris]

Just like all dp you need to use it once per game to show your opponent you can and will use do then the mind games starts, of course you need to be good at baiting other peoples dp as well lol

[Monarch]

Not sure why, but I've had a lot of success with using 6A on my opponents wakeup. I either get a nice FC combo or a BNB, it's all nice for catching rolls too.

[Zouf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAIdnUILUK8&feature=youtu.be

 

Just wanted to show this vid for the move at 3:08. OD is kinda overpowered when you bait a DP. 

 

It was quite laggy and the match itself isn't so interesting (lots of dropped combos and bad decisions from my part), yet i feel this very part is underused by Tsubaki's players (only time i've seen it was in one of Kuresu's match)

[Errol]

if it was overpowered you would see it more.

 

lots of stuff has to come together for that to work.

[chzchan]

 

OD is kinda overpowered when you bait a DP. 

 

Not overpowered in the slightest considering how much more damage other characters get off of using their OD without the need of having at least 64 heat, being at ~25% health, and getting a CH.

 

Hell, I'd use it all the time if I met all of those requirements more often, but burst is just so much more handy.

 

I guess you can do a 100% health OD punish so long as you have one charge, but they'll be able to burst out of the latter half of the combo if they have one available and the 236236D used at the end won't be the OD version. You'd need maximum 50% health to make it unburstable. The fact that OD lasts much longer when used outside of a combo makes it pretty neat and I congratulate you for being able to pull it off.

[ninchusama]

Sent from my N800 using Tapatalk

[Zouf]

*sigh*

 

Your bad temper sadden me

[chzchan]

Did some more tests and Kagura actually flies over you if you time the OD correctly to dodge his DP and you have to do the CH 5C > 6C > Mugen in the other direction which I thought was pretty funny. If you don't, the latter hits of his DP smack you too far away to hit 5C while he is in recovery, so you still have to instant block to keep you close and get the punish. I guess you could also go for 5B as well, but it may start up too late that it misses the recovery.

[Monarch]

Something you may have already known, but when your opponent does something punishable, I find it very helpful to 5C>OD to retaliate.That way if they burst you can guard it, and still deal reasonable damage.

[chzchan]

Oh but that will count as an OD cancel rather than a straight OD activation and it will last a much shorter time. Unless you are really low on health, they will probably be able to burst on the latter half of your punish.

 

Dodging the punishable move with an OD activation actually gives you a longer OD which I think is pretty cool. If you happen to not have any charge either, doing OD > 5C > 6C will give the OD enough time to bring you up to 1 charge, so you can activate Mugen within the combo. This can be done at any % of health.

 

I can see the usefulness of your suggestion against random CHs, though. I know a lot of people that immediately burst when they hear COUNTER. It is like burst baiting from the start of a combo, haha.

[Zouf]

Doesn't burst still hit you when you hit OD activation? I believe OD is not invulnerable to burst. Happened to me a couple of time, and i couldn't guard the burst

[zaeris]

In a few matches I have gotten a punish into 5c 6c 214214d and if they do burst you can just block it during mugen lol. Otherwise you also jump cancel the 6c or rc somewhere to bait burst.

anyway I think OD is only usually good if you're low on Health or a full OD activation. Is 5c OD cancel worth it? I can see it kinda working but at the same time you rather just let them burst because the next chance of doing an OD combo it would likely kill

[Kiba]

Something you may have already known, but when your opponent does something punishable, I find it very helpful to 5C>OD to retaliate.That way if they burst you can guard it, and still deal reasonable damage.

I have been successful in this too Frost, although I do it with the intention to lock their burst. I don't mean to bait the burst, but it happens.

[Monarch]

I have been successful in this too Frost, although I do it with the intention to lock their burst. I don't mean to bait the burst, but it happens.

Well I use it more as an option select. Since I used to use CH 5C > 6C and my opponent would always burst at seeing 5C, so at least with the 5C > OD method you're safe regardless.