[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[zaeris]

thats fine, because tsuabki doesnt have solid gameplay we need gimmicks lol.

[chzchan]

Haha, you got that right. I love coming up with gimmicks too.

 

After further testing I found out that you can do the 6C air unblockable catch reset off of 5A if you do things a bit differently. If you don't fully charge 22B at the end of the combo you get the same early tech window effect. Here is an example.

 

5A > 5CC > 236B > 214B > 22B(uncharged) > 6C®

 

The upper limit of normals after the 5A confirm is five, and the minimum is two. This really just means you aren't going to be doing any 5A > 5BB > 2BB > 5CC > etc. or 5AAA > 5BB > 5CC > etc. Too many and the earliest tech window will allow for forward air techs to hop over you and not enough will make it so that earliest tech window is on the ground instead of in the air.

[zaeris]

this is starting to get interesting....

to me tsubaki 5a is actually one of her best buttons she has but the games punishes you for using tsubaki 5a \lol. I've been using less 5a starter because it goes into crap damage but now it can provide some good set up.

 

now we just need a new thread for gimmicks ^^

[chzchan]

See the best part about this one is that the lack of SMP from two 214Bs makes this much much less suspicious. I've been having fun catching people with it twice after going into the 5A version in the corner and then going back into it after landing the 6C and using the 214B SMP version. Too much fun. Now that I know I can get the setup out of 5A it is my go to combo in the corner out of 5A, especially if I am sitting on meter or a few charges as I will be able to take full advantage of them if the 6C lands cleanly.

 

On another note, is there any way for Tsubaki to deal with fuzzy jumps?

[zaeris]

what exactly do you mean by fuzzy jump?

if it's a true fuzzy guard set up, you just block up if expecting.

[chzchan]

 

what exactly do you mean by fuzzy jump?
if it's a true fuzzy guard set up, you just block up if expecting.

 

Fuzzy jump is an option select that you can use to get out of most types of pressure/oki really easily. The input is 171ABC. It guards low, air barriers overheads, jumps out of gaps in pressure, and techs grabs. It loses to strings that have the frame data to hit people out of their jump startup, throw reject miss setups, and air throws. Characters like Kokonoe, Azrael, Carl, Litchi, Rachel, Tao, Relius, Hazama and Valkenhayn have ways to prevent this option select from even working without having to call it out. These characters can pretty much completely ignore it without even have to think about it existing. Here are some translated japanese notes on how it works. The title is "Fuzzy Guard" but I hear it called "Fuzzy Jump" because "Fuzzy Guard" is exactly what you described.

 

I was just wondering if Tsubaki somehow had a way to deal with it.

[zaeris]

guess I should roll with it even though I dont agree its a perfect OS,

like GG any jumping attempts can be counter with adding lows,

2bb, since it adds two lows I don't think you can change from 171 without eating a low.

going with your jump start up gap, 5b 3c gatling, any delay 5bb or 5cc string. guess I will stay out of this then.

[chzchan]

Oh yeah I almost forgot about the low strings in the weaknesses part. I guess that does work huh. Just gotta time the delayed gatling right then. It still requires calling out of the OS, though. I dunno.

It isn't perfect, but it does deal with a good amount of conventional options that are used on wakeup which is why it is so effective. I only recently found out about it after it started getting discussed after EVO. It has apparently been around for a while.

[zaeris]

Back to your shenanigans

5bb 5cc 236b 214b 22b max 5c 2c 214b

I feel it's less noticeable going through this method because you can always change it to a j236a oki instead and looks similar going into the same path as orb oki.

Edit

Took me a while to find it

5bb 5cc 623c 214a whiff 5b sjb jcc jd jb djb jcc j214d 6cc 214b 22b whiff 6c

I think the non-smp is dependent on the height you hit them with 214b so 6cc is probably the correct height fro non smp combo

Another one that we use often

623c delay j236d j214d 6cc 236c 214b 22b whiff 6c

edit 2

a few character specific mid screen

5bb 5cc 623c 214a whiff 5b sjb jcc jd jb djb jc j236a j214d 6cc 214b 22b whiff 6c

This has a slightly different function where it will make the opponent slide behind you after j214d for mid screen set up, the 6cc 214b then creates a side exchange into your 6cc gimmick

works on Azrael, JIn, Kokonoe. I haven't tested it fully on which character it will cause behind sliding effect and i haven't analysis why it makes j214 hit from behind on certain character something you can try..

mid screen 6c aa combo i think would be 6c ct 5c 2cc delay iad jcc 5c 2c 236c 214b 22b ~4535 damage ish

EDIT 3

http://youtu.be/zvIBPfLLKH8?list=UUZpQPKgt4148BeGmS6knh9w

showcasing the above

[JyakotuKurayami]

I've been learning Tsubaki, mainly because I needed an easy to use character to add to my BB army. She's a lot of fun, but she does have a bunch of difficult match ups. I think the reason why I like her is because she has the meter management gimmick. As for being a rushdown character, she's very subpar, but I love her for whatever reason. Still, I find it difficult to mix up with her and it's even harder to get in with her. A lot of people know how to block her attacks. I really wish some of her specials didn't lose their A/B/C variants.

[zaeris]

the meter management part of tsubaki is mostly tacked on, as in with it her damage output is that of a normal characters lol, without stock she has below subpar damage in most case. I'm just curious but do people find tsubaki easy to use? but with many up hill battle?

[Zouf]

she's very dependent of her starter, but in corner she deals more damage than average. She has more trouble midscreen tho.

 

The A/B/C variants were most of the time useless, i'm pretty happy they got rid of it. It wouldn't improve her mix up game one bit, as every move was minus on guard anyway.

 

Tsubaki is fairly easy (super easy actually) to learn, but she's weak, so it's hard to win with.

[chzchan]

Back to your shenanigans

5bb 5cc 236b 214b 22b max 5c 2c 214b

5bb 5cc 623c 214a whiff 5b sjb jcc jd jb djb jcc j214d 6cc 214b 22b whiff 6c

623c delay j236d j214d 6cc 236c 214b 22b whiff 6c

5bb 5cc 623c 214a whiff 5b sjb jcc jd jb djb jc j236a j214d 6cc 214b 22b whiff 6c

EDIT 3

http://youtu.be/zvIBPfLLKH8?list=UUZpQPKgt4148BeGmS6knh9w

showcasing the above

 

All of that is pretty neat, but don't forget that at midscreen your opponent still has the option to tech backwards in the air. The reason why the gimmick works so well is because it is used in the corner. Not only is teching forward encouraged mentally over teching backward when your back is to the corner, teching backward is still punished by 6C unless barrier is used.

 

These are all still pretty great. Even though you went through the trouble of showcasing the super complicated one that I will never pull off in a fight due to the inconsistencies of the j.214D crossup, I think that the one out of clean DP with 2 charges is probably the most handy. If you are midscreen, I think there is enough corner carry to discourage backwards air teching.

 

 

The A/B/C variants were most of the time useless, i'm pretty happy they got rid of it. It wouldn't improve her mix up game one bit, as every move was minus on guard anyway.

 

I do sort of miss the variants of j.236A because they did have use. It would be neat if they'd make it so that you can hold down A and a direction to get the same effects that the different variations gave before CP instead of the default backwards motion that j.236A gives now. Inputting it without holding down would release the projectile whereas holding it down would hold the projectile in and keep it from coming out while also allowing you to move forward, upward, or downward.

[zaeris]

The dp whiff combo does have great corner carry, and anywhere mid screen will reach corner with ease, I will try and science cross over jd sometimes later, something interesting to look forward too.

I should look into the uncharge 22b route for non smp maybe there is a formula for it.

[Airk]

the meter management part of tsubaki is mostly tacked on, as in with it her damage output is that of a normal characters lol, without stock she has below subpar damage in most case. I'm just curious but do people find tsubaki easy to use? but with many up hill battle?

 

She's 'easy' for beginners because you can mash followup attacks and get easy hitconfirms and more time to realize you're doing a combo, assuming 5BB doesn't whiff, anyway.

 

I agree that her drive is practically a handicap though, since her damage with stock is basically the same sort of damage everyone else gets by default without having to spend any magical banana points.

 

she's very dependent of her starter, but in corner she deals more damage than average. She has more trouble midscreen tho.

 

The A/B/C variants were most of the time useless, i'm pretty happy they got rid of it. It wouldn't improve her mix up game one bit, as every move was minus on guard anyway.

 

Tsubaki is fairly easy (super easy actually) to learn, but she's weak, so it's hard to win with.

 

I _REALLY_ miss 22A and 22C.  There were meaningful differences there and they should be brought back.  Especially if we go back to 22C being +1. (If Hazama's F-ing Jabaki can be +1, 22C can be, damnit.)

 

I don't think she's actually that easy to learn once you get past the very beginning sort of stuff.  Her mid-tier combos are fairly execution heavy, and playing neutral and applying pressure beyond the most basic levels are not easy either.  I guess she's "super easy" to learn in that her basic combos are super easy and she doesn't have any nonstandard movement. :P

[chzchan]

The dp whiff combo does have great corner carry, and anywhere mid screen will reach corner with ease, I will try and science cross over jd sometimes later, something interesting to look forward too.

I should look into the uncharge 22b route for non smp maybe there is a formula for it.

Just found out that there is a bunch of character specific stuff that this gimmick has as well.

The 5A starter route does not work on Bang because 22B whiffs. Nothing I have thrown in chargless allows it to be possible off of a short starter, so the 214B > 22B(w) route has to be used. Also 5C (preferably dashing 5C) must be used to catch him after the 22B(max).

It also does not work on Tao because she falls too fast for some reason. Her hitbox touches the ground before 6C can catch her in the air. 214B SMP route still works, but 5D charge gain must be given up because hitting Tao requires a dashing 5C in the corner. Actually the conventional 214B SMP route is really really hard to get on her because she still touches the ground so damn fast. You have to do 5C(dash) > 2C > 214B(smp) > 6C® in order for it to work consistently, but only 3 of the 6 hits will touch her most of the time. For some reason doing 22B(w) after the 214B makes the 6C not catch Tao in the air.

Using the 214B SMP route on Hazama will not get all 6 hits of 6C in while using the 5A starter route will get all 6 hits in because he falls funny.

Using the 214B SMP route against Litchi requires you to use 5B to catch her after the 22B(max) just like when you would go for the j.236A oki against her.

Using the 214B SMP route on Noel will only get 5 hits of 6C in while using the 5A starter route will get all 6 hits in.

5A starter route does not work on Amane because of how he floats when he recovers in the air. 214B SMP route still works, but you gotta do a dashing 5C and only 3 hits of 6C will hit him.

Same as Amane, 5A starter route does not work on Arakune because of how he floats when he recovers in the air. 214B SMP route still works and only 2-3 hits of 6C will hit him.

Same as Amane and Arakune, 5A starter route does not work on Rachel because of how she floats when she recovers in the air. 214B SMP route still works and only 2-3 hits of 6C will hit her, but it is very very unreliable. The only problem is that Rachel will be behind you when those 2-3 hits land, so you can't follow up into a corner combo (or any of the stronger ones at least because a Crush Trigger cannot be used). You have to do 5B/C > 2C > 214B(smp) > 6C® in order for the 214B SMP route to work and keep her in the corner.

Using the 214B SMP route against Carl requires you to use a dashing 5C to catch him after the 22B(max).

Using the 214B SMP route against Platinum requires you to use 5B to catch her after the 22B(max).

The 5A starter route does not work on Nu-13 because 22B whiffs and she falls really funny.

So that's it. It works on every single character with a small exception being that you have to use a dashing 5C without 5D for Carl specifically.

So yeah never ever listen to me ever.

Also, thinking about it now, 5B/C > 2C > 214B(smp) should be the standard 214B SMP route because it works on every single character and it makes them air tech incredibly close to the ground so they are even less likely to barrier if they forward air tech.

One more thing.

5BB > 5CC > 236A/B > 214B > 22D(max) > 6C > 236C > 214B(smp) > 22B(w) > 6C®

Alternate 1 charge route from midscreen. Cool thing about this one is that the confirm is incredibly easy. Also it goes by a different set of minimum and maximum normals-before-236B rules. Minimum amount of normals is 4 which is perfect and the max is probably 7 which is not possible unless a short starter is used. I know this because 2BB > 5BB > 5CC > 236B still allows it to work. This really just means you can't go into it out of a clean 5CC. It only works if that 22D(max) knocks them near enough to the corner because the 214B followup will whiff if they are not already in the corner by the time you run up to them to do 6C. So far from tests, any place farther from the corner than the exact center of the stage will make it not work.

Oh but there's more.

5BB > 5CC > 236B > 214D > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B(w) > 6C®

One more alternate 1 charge route from midscreen to the corner. This one takes advantage of 236B SMP instead of 214B. This one follows the same minimum and maximum rules as the 1 charge route above, but the height at which the 5C is landed after the 214D is very important; the lower the better. If you land the 5C too high, it will allow your opponent to forward air tech over you. It also happens to have nearly the same stage position constraints as well.

[zaeris]

I hope you made an excel spreadsheet for this lol

[Zouf]

 

I _REALLY_ miss 22A and 22C.  There were meaningful differences there and they should be brought back.  Especially if we go back to 22C being +1. (If Hazama's F-ing Jabaki can be +1, 22C can be, damnit.)

 

Oh yeah 22A was pretty cool. Never really used 22C for pressure.

 

Meh, we got a cool fireball now.

[Airk]

Oh yeah 22A was pretty cool. Never really used 22C for pressure.

 

Meh, we got a cool fireball now.

 

25 frame fireball for plus a little is not comparable to a 19 frame startup +1 move, IMHO.  Would be really nice together with special cancellable 6C.

 

I mean, the fireball is great for other stuff, but for this particular situation, it's not a substitute.

[chzchan]

I hope you made an excel spreadsheet for this lol

 

I plan on it eventually. It will be a google doc and will follow the same format as the Hazama 1.1 Combo Bible. It'll have all the combos and whatnot as well and not just my own. I plan on compiling everything just because. I can't wait.

 

Also here's another 1 charge path. This one can only be used in the corner and it happens to just be a modification of the 22D corner combo.

 

6B/5B/5C > 22D > 6C > 214B > 22B(max) > 5B/C > 2C > 214B > 22B(w) > 6C®

5B > 5CC > 22D > 214B > 22B(max) > 5B/C > 2C > 214B > 22B(w) > 6C®

 

The confirm on the top one is pretty hard because the maximum amount of normals before 22D is 1, but going down this route for the setup sacrifices about 700 damage from the full corner combo, so I don't think it is really worth doing. The one below it is an alternate route which sacrifices even more damage (around 1200) for the setup, but allows it to be done off of a max of 3 normals before 22D rather than 1. That one is probably even less worth going for.

[zaeris]

AA 6c ct 6cc 236c 214b 22b whiff 6c works too

It's quite funny since you can just troll your way with just 3 combo and win, although I don't encourage scrub killing this way lol.

Edit 1

5bb 5cc 236d 5bb 2bb 5cc 236b 214b 22b uncharge 6c useful if your back is towards corner

[chzchan]

Haha, I know right? I usually go for the reset as early as I can and that usually nets me the first round because of how easy it is to get 25% heat and 2 charges as well as a 5A grounded confirm near the corner. I will be testing it out at the local bi-monthly and monthly tournaments next Friday and Saturday to see how it fairs against people offline.

 

And also you beat me to it. I actually opened up the forums to post that 236D one.

[zaeris]

well I should go back to science nu, so that way you have time to post all your set ups,

I was having fun with a low air tech set up because it sometimes occurs when I try 214b oki but sometimes they air tech and I get punish often, but now with the exact set up it would be easier to plan then play on the fly sometimes.

[zaeris]

well there hasn't been much discussion lately but I kinda want to get this off my chest and maybe the patch might have the developer taking the correct approach.

anyway, in terms of gameplay for tsubaki, it is for every tsubaki player to decide how much to charge during the game, this is because you can play a chargeless game comparable to charging a few stocks, however the gain is notice-able with mid screen and few throw combo having higher damage output but neverless charging is such a momentum killer which can also turn the tables against you if the opponent regain their neutral.

For me I prefer charging and often I would sacrfice health for a few stock because I enjoy seeing larger damage output but it can also go quite wrong giving my opponent his chance. Now charge move are not quite as good as previous iteration usualy having more plus on block, currently the charge special function are similar to other characters special and with her non charge move being outright terrible.

I guess my question is how much do you charge during matches, I believe the developers need to look at tsubaki mechanics abit more and decide which direction they want to go with her stock system. I would prefer it was something like bullet where ending a combo would net you a level 1 increase, if they are going to keep charging at the current rate, maybe ending combo with charged 22b should reward you with one stock.

anyone else thoughts?

[Airk]

I don't charge very much, overall, but sometimes I get greedy and get punished for it. 

 

The big problem with the charge system is that Arc Sys doesn't seem able to decide if charging should be hard or easy and adjust the reward accordingly.  They seem to have this confused "Well, you NEED to have charge to do real damage...but charging should be hard... but we're going to give you new ways to do it... but your charge specials can't be too good!" attitude where we get the short straw in several areas.

 

As far as I am concerned, right now, charge is basically a handicap - "You need charge to do real damage and have decent neutral tools!";  The small handful of other cast members who have a finite resource A) Get that resource "for free" over time and B) Get a bigger payoff than we do for using it.

 

At least one of three things needs to happen:

Charging needs to get significantly easier. (Faster rates from charge cancel, less/no recovery on charge moves, command grab less awful, whatever.)

Our functionality with no charge needs to improve (better chargeless damage. I don't really favor this choice because it reduces the uniqueness of the character)

Charging needs to have a bigger payoff (Better damage from multiple charge combos, charge moves more effective in neutral)

 

Honestly, I prefer choice #3.  People should be thinking "Oh crap, I can't let her get too many charges or I'm in trouble!" - I'm not interested in going to some generic "Oh, well, you do a combo and then your next combo is better because you got some charge." model - that's basically what Bullet and Azrael already do.  And similarly, if you just buff up our chargeless game, you're reducing the uniqueness of the mechanic.  If you're going to build a character with a meter that needs to be manually charged up, it should be a sort of "Not especially scary until they've managed to build up some power, at which point they become VERY SCARY" mechanic.  They sortof did this with Izayoi, but both the mechanics of getting "charge" and the way it changes her game are both so radically different from Tsubaki that the "overlap" here is actually good, since it's basically just thematic.