[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[Airk]

Random proposal for discussion:

 

What would the effect on balance be if we started the match with two charges? With five?

[zaeris]

going with the above while I was waiting to hear from more people,

first using your 3rd recommendation, a buff to her charge special would make the neutral game better and thus make her more of a threat without needing to change her damage status quo, mainly subpar damage but a enhance neutral game would really benefit her the most, with 214d gaining head invul, 236d 0+/- on block, think it was 1+ on block or something in cs2.

at random proposal@

at 2 stock round start, someone would just blew it all up on 214d 236d lol, or likely she will get full screen carry on first combo which could be too advantageous,

we could go with 5 stock round start if maybe she lost the ability to manual charge, kinda like bangs nail, and only can be recharge with OD over tim, could be interesting since you can just run a whole round with just 3 stock.

[chzchan]

I guess my question is how much do you charge during matches, I believe the developers need to look at tsubaki mechanics abit more and decide which direction they want to go with her stock system. I would prefer it was something like bullet where ending a combo would net you a level 1 increase, if they are going to keep charging at the current rate, maybe ending combo with charged 22b should reward you with one stock.

anyone else thoughts?

I don't base my gameplan on getting and using charge most of the time, but I guess it really depends on the matchup and my analysis of the person I am fighting. For example, I don't charge in neutral normally unless I am fighting against Tager because it is usually safe and it can be used to bait out his projectile if I see his bar is full. Then there are other times when I see that someone is prone to doing jump-ins so I bait them in by tapping 2D or even holding it if they are reluctant and then smack them with 2C if they aren't Jin/Hakumen because that never works. I actually recently learned about the 2D tapping from a run in with another really good Tsubaki online and it is incredibly effective.

I tend to try to play chargeless, so I never hold down D after ending a combo for more than a split second so I can stay on my opponent as effectively as possible. Again, it really depends on the matchup. Like I would 100% need 2+ charges at all time in neutral against Nu-13 where I could go with or without against, lets say, Makoto. I do like going for the command grab as often as I can, though. If I do land one successfully, I try to save those for big damage combos by not expending them in neutral and waiting for that counterhit (or 6C AA corner confirm like I have been getting recently).

I do think something needs to be done about her charge system, though. We really got shafted in this version with every non-Mugen thing surrounding the D button.

 

I don't charge very much, overall, but sometimes I get greedy and get punished for it.

The big problem with the charge system is that Arc Sys doesn't seem able to decide if charging should be hard or easy and adjust the reward accordingly. They seem to have this confused "Well, you NEED to have charge to do real damage...but charging should be hard... but we're going to give you new ways to do it... but your charge specials can't be too good!" attitude where we get the short straw in several areas.

As far as I am concerned, right now, charge is basically a handicap - "You need charge to do real damage and have decent neutral tools!"; The small handful of other cast members who have a finite resource A) Get that resource "for free" over time and B) Get a bigger payoff than we do for using it.

At least one of three things needs to happen:

Charging needs to get significantly easier. (Faster rates from charge cancel, less/no recovery on charge moves, command grab less awful, whatever.)

Our functionality with no charge needs to improve (better chargeless damage. I don't really favor this choice because it reduces the uniqueness of the character)

Charging needs to have a bigger payoff (Better damage from multiple charge combos, charge moves more effective in neutral)

Honestly, I prefer choice #3. People should be thinking "Oh crap, I can't let her get too many charges or I'm in trouble!" - I'm not interested in going to some generic "Oh, well, you do a combo and then your next combo is better because you got some charge." model - that's basically what Bullet and Azrael already do. And similarly, if you just buff up our chargeless game, you're reducing the uniqueness of the mechanic. If you're going to build a character with a meter that needs to be manually charged up, it should be a sort of "Not especially scary until they've managed to build up some power, at which point they become VERY SCARY" mechanic. They sortof did this with Izayoi, but both the mechanics of getting "charge" and the way it changes her game are both so radically different from Tsubaki that the "overlap" here is actually good, since it's basically just thematic.

I very very much agree with #3 in that list as well. #1 would be sort of boring and just make her easier. She really is an easy character. What makes her hard is how terrible she is. #2 was sort of already done with BBCP in comparison to other versions and I do not think that should be adjusted much (aside from making her overhead not terrible). With the addition of the resource-less projectile, command grab, and all of the damage she gets off of counterhits, I think chargeless Tsubaki is much better off than she has been, at least in certain areas.

I also share the desire to make people afraid of her as she gets more charge. Even though her charge rate is super duper slow in this version, I actually like it a lot if it means that the payoff is higher. But the payoff, like you mentioned, cannot just be in the form of more damage. See, Tsubaki has the benefits divided pretty evenly for all of her D moves in terms of neutral usefulness and combo, though some of the moves are a lot better than others. For example, 623D is just useless all around outside of Mugen and I hate that so much. The problem I see is that both of these parts have been super mitigated this version. I mean, they work, but for what they give now with how hard it is to get charge, it really does not seem like it is really worth using them because you really do not know when you might get some back.

 

Random proposal for discussion:

What would the effect on balance be if we started the match with two charges? With five?

Eh, I really would not prefer that, especially because it does not mesh very well with the philosophy behind #3 in your earlier post. I mean, yeah, it would help out in some of her awful matchups, but don't forget that OD exists. Using Nu-13 as an example again, I usually just OD right off the bat to secure those crucial 2 charges that I need to get in if they have me locked down from a screen length away. I think she is alright starting out with nothing because it just gives her charges even more value. It is just that the amount of effort to get them should start being reflected in the effectiveness of her D moves.

Let me throw in my own suggestion that I have been thinking about for a while.

What if Tsubaki got some sort of 4D and 6D commands that she can use the same way 5D and 2D can be used to charge cancel? Instead of holding her in place, they would move her in the direction you press. Of course this would be able to be used outside of charge cancelling as well as a sort of command dash. It would also have a much shorter recovery time than 5D and 2D. The thing is that using either of these commands would drain the install gauge rather than charge it.

This mechanic would open up a whole new horizon of opportunities for Tsubaki. Because using these commands not only moves you in a direction, but also leaves you in a much more positive position, you can take advantage of 4D or 6D to either make your pressure more oppressive or get to a safe distance if you are feeling cautious. Because of the shorter recovery on the two commands I would think it would be possible to extend some midscreen BNBs with 6D's shorter recovery and get a combo similar to that one OD FC challenge combo minus the OD and FC. I would hope that because of the shortened recovery, if you feel like you are willing to spend the charge, you would be able to command dash forward and barrier brake into a slide much safer than doing so while running and cover more distance as well.

Using the commands in pressure would open up a second level of frame trapping, but also require you to manage a charge equilibrium. You would need to mix in both 5/2D and 4/6D so that the rates cancel each other out when you go in, but damn would it be effective, especially against people who are familiar with the Tsubaki matchup. It would actually make people watch your gauge like I have to do for so many other characters in order to play against them effectively. See, you would have the option of either a delayed gatling, a + charge cancel that leaves you at a slight negative frame-wise, or a - charge cancel that leaves you at a slight positive frame-wise as well as either closer or farther away from your opponent. Command dashing forward would allow you to stick to people like glue and keep them from jumping out of your pressure which it is so incredibly easy to do against Tsubaki so long as you have charge to spend. Command dashing backward would allow you to bait DPs, reversal supers, and Tager's command grabs way better as well as allow you to get the hell out if you are running low on charge.

What I think would be probably the most cool is how well this would synergize with Tsubaki's OD and Mugen. The faster recovery given to j.D, 5D, and 2D in OD would carry over to 4D and 6D as well making them leave you at an even greater + during your pressure. The best part is that you would be able to use continuous charge-dash cancel pressure without having to worry about using up charge. Though you would most likely be at equilibrium with even safer pressure with very little management with OD, in Mugen you would just be able to pressure for days as well as continuously dash in either direction until your bar completely drains. Just imagine OD + Mugen. Damn that would be scary to fight against. I want this fear to be REAL.

There are a few more specifics that I would like to go into, but I can do that later. This would be my dream change for 2.0.

[TeeJay]

Airk, did you get to play Dogura?

 

I'm trying to figure out how to practice her in neutral? 

 

Tsubaki, I generally have trouble getting in and keeping momentum. I just feel like people aren't afraid of anything she does. 

 

I do miss her j. 236x variants because the C version I think made a nice crossup. I miss 22D unblockable and calling out other moves with 22x being perfectly spaces. I had to stop myself from doing it in the same situations. 

[Airk]

Airk, did you get to play Dogura?

 

I'm trying to figure out how to practice her in neutral? 

 

Tsubaki, I generally have trouble getting in and keeping momentum. I just feel like people aren't afraid of anything she does. 

 

I do miss her j. 236x variants because the C version I think made a nice crossup. I miss 22D unblockable and calling out other moves with 22x being perfectly spaces. I had to stop myself from doing it in the same situations. 

 

Yes, yes I did. He was my FIRST MATCH. (It was supposed to be some nameless dude who didn't even have a handle, but he was so nameless that he didn't show up so I got a bye and went straight to Dogura. Ooof.  Though actually I think I did better against him than anyone else I saw butt heads with him in pools.)

 

There's not much reason to be afraid of Tsubaki because her options at neutral are such garbage. =/

 

Chzchan - I think the 4D and 6D idea is pretty cool and interesting.  I could totally get behind that.

[chzchan]

Got to try out the new gimmick during Arc Divide at UGC in SoCal. I actually nearly stole a few rounds with it which was really really funny. The two people I got to use it on, a Jin and a Tao were just bewildered when it happened. At both instances they said different variations of "I didn't know Tsubaki could do more than 5k" when in truth it did more than 5k because of the damage from the initial setup. I also successfully got zaeris' 214D corner reset to work a few times as well, but that was just in casuals. It was just a test run of the gimmicks, but both worked very very well.

 

Oh yeah also new thing I found out. Even if your opponent uses barrier during the setup, they will still get hit by the latter part of 6C because of landing recovery. This is only true in a few specific types of the setup and depend heavily on the amount of normals used in the combo and how long the combo is.

[zaeris]

That sounds like music to my ears lol, I would be laughing too if it landed more than once per round

Remember the reason people forward tech is because they disrespect tsubaki in general lol, that 5k comment is testament of how much they don't care about your damage lol.

[chzchan]

 

Izayoi & Tsubaki Neta Combo Movie 2 - There isn't much Tsubaki here. 2:41 shows a combo, and from 3:50 it shows a few gimmicks you can use from 22D. All which require neutral tech...

 

The gimmick used here is also pretty handy, I have been testing it out recently and it works pretty well. It does not work exactly as intended with the 2B crossunder all the time because nobody EVER neutral techs if they see me jump over them after the 22D knockdown in the corner. What does happen very very often, though, is me catching people rolling forward with 2BB. I might work with this and create some kind of "good starter" setup out of it so that you aren't stuck with crappy 2B air combos.

[zaeris]

I'm still trying to optimise the gimmicks lol,

 

623c>j236d>214d> land 6c> jd> jc> land 6c works but they will tech slightly higher forward/back or neutral but otherwise works similarly. I find it more consistent compare to my old one, 623c>delay j236d>j214d>6cc>214b>22b whiff>6c, to succeed with this one is to hit them at the highest point of 623c given you the longest time waster in the combo for the combo deteriation effect to kick in after 214b.

[chzchan]

Just had a few exchanges online with a Jin who really liked to spam his projectiles. I figured I would try using 22B's projectile guardpoint attribute for once and it was really really funny. I don't know why it felt so satisfying to do even though it really didn't accomplish much. Just seeing the little blue guard circle appear near the edge of the sword and watching the projectile go poof made me smile.

 

Getting the guardpoint to actually happen looks like it nearly eliminates 22B's recovery by speeding up the animation.

[Zouf]

On another topic :

 

Neither Konan nor Kuresu managed to qualify for Arc Revo

 

I'm just sad.

[chzchan]

I tried to console Kuresu on one of his recent his nico livestreams when he was playing Tsubaki in the arcade lobbies, but he didn't understand English.

 

On another note, I have been using 22B a lot in neutral and after knockdown recently ever since messing around with the projectile guardpoint stuff and it really really scares people and I don't know why. 22B CH combos are the best.

[Airk]

I tried to use 22B in neutral for a while, but honestly the game moves too fast for me to space it effectively most of the time, and it doesn't have that many active frames, so it's tough for me.  I should probably put in some more practice with it.

[chzchan]

I have been getting enough luck with it that I have spent some time coming up with combos out of it. I already had my 22B > RC > 6C combos from a while back, but I did some more experimenting with CH combos and you can get HUGE damage even if you have a few resources at your disposal. Just about to post the combos in the combo thread, but then I checked the combo compilation and they were already there.

 

One of the other reasons I have taken to using it is that I am tired of getting counter-grabbed if I chase someone down after a ground ender with 5/2A or 2B if I know they don't have a DP. If they have a DP I always try to bait it, but when I do I get grabbed. With 22B I just sit at a nice safe distance and actually get to hide behind my attack box that doesn't have any hurtboxes within it like a good lot of the cast already can. For some reason it has been keeping people on the ground which does not really make that much sense from my perspective, but it sure as hell helps.

 

I've spent my free time when I am not scouring twitter and other websites for anything 2.0 Tsubaki related just messing around with 22B in the training room with ranked on in the background for the last week or so. I recently 22B guardpointed Tager's spark bolt and I felt really accomplished. Spamming nicely spaced 22B in the Tager matchup is actually really effective because you can hit them out of their forward advances without being in grab range.

[zaeris]

I find 22b good in situation where your opponent spaces it for you, such as litchi when she uses her D moves to cancel her strings. Mainly in otjher in area where 5b doesn't reach, although I would like cs2 22a back ^^,

[chzchan]

Yeah, I wish that this version's 22B got either the 10f startup of the old 22A or the + on block of the old 22C rather than just the projectile guardpoint of the old 22B. I guess it is the one we kept input-wise, but come on.

[zaeris]

Yeah, I wish that this version's 22B got either the 10f startup of the old 22A or the + on block of the old 22C rather than just the projectile guardpoint of the old 22B. I guess it is the one we kept input-wise, but come on.

In gener they keep removing her tools I'm starting to find this un-fun lol, guess I should try and use the ground fireball more.

Lol the thought just came to me that maybe tsubaki is aspiring to be Jin starting with a fireball anyway silly thoughts aside is there any news on next loketest.

[Kiba]

Using 22B after knockdown is generally not the way forward.

[chzchan]

Yeah, I know it is terrible. I still mix it in with everything else in my bag of awful gimmicks. I was actually inspired by my experiences with Terumi to do it because it is sort of like his 5D, but with worse everything. It is sort of a crutch because I really really suck at timing meaties and being able to charge the move and release at the right time from a safe distance makes me feel not as terrible. It gets absolutely nothing off of rolls midscreen and you have to RC into a dashing 5C in the corner in order to follow it up because of how short the untech time is on an airborne hit. It is also negative on block even when fully charged.

What I have been catching people doing is staying still because they think I am positive. Also if they try to advance forward instead of just simply up-backing away, just like with Terumi I smack them with 22B again and that hit is usually a CH.

I guess I really shouldn't use it after knockdown. Maybe I should look into implementation as a frame trap more than something to just use raw after a knockdown. I should also just practice my meaties more.

So far the most gimmicky thing I have been able to do with it so far is hit Kagura out of his 6DB where he lunges forward, disappears and then appears behind you for a nice CH. 22B apparently has an attack box behind Tsubaki as well, so Kagura gets hit even when he is behind you.

 

Okay wakeup throw/jab baiting with 22B is the funnest thing ever. If you end a combo with 236X > 214B > 22B(w) or 3cc (or get in a command grab) and you know your opponent is prone to neutral teching, what you do is dash up to them and then immediately backdash and 22B. Holy shit this is the best thing ever if you know 100% that people disrespect you. God it is just so satisfying to see them whiff the grab and get CH 22B'd. This works really well if you condition them to think you will go for grabs after knockdown and they don't have a DP.

 

I have tried it out on a few Litchis I have fought and it completely neutralizes their DP and the almost immediate recovery of 22B thanks to the adjusted frame data from when a projectile is guard pointed allows you to get the hell out of the way of the falling staff.

 

This is also really good for baiting out Platinum's counter. The backdash puts you at the perfect distance so that the doll that comes out when 22B is caught. It has a pretty ridiculous amount of recovery, so you can go in for the punish afterward. It works the same way for Hakumen's counter, but you don't get the punish and you feed him one resource dingle.

 

Ending the midscreen BnB with 236X > 22B > 5D and then going in for another 22B gets me CHs as well. Just another thing to try out. Also 22B is + on hit, so I guess you can attempt to reset pressure if you dash maybe but it is pretty unsafe. It sort of works like charge cancel pressure, so I continue pressure at the beginning and hopefully they think I am unsafe and then I get smacked. Then the second time I end the BnB with 236X > 22B > 5D I just smack them with 22B and get a nice CH on them mashing because they expect me to dash up. 5B also reaches far enough to hit people after ending with 236X > 22B > 5D, so you can do 5B > 6C or 5B > 3C shenanigans because those are the only gatlings that reach far enough.

 

Oh boy another thing. If you end the same BnB with 236X and regularly go for a grab afterward and successfully get it because your opponent isn't mashing initially, you can delay 22B by charging it and get a 22B CH from when they mash the time afterward. You have to really trust your opponent to learn from their earlier mistakes, though, so this doesn't really work on people who are in autopilot 100% of the time.

 

One more pretty unrelated thing is that ending a combo with j.214C after using j.BB before the jump cancel makes you land behind the opponent after the knockdown. There are a few different ways to do it, but you have to make sure the combo isn't already really long or else the j.B stuff won't happen and the j.214C will be way too slow to hit.

 

More unrelated stuff. OD cancelling during Tsubaki's block strings/threads and doing charge cancel pressure makes people really afraid. I am not sure if it is worth using depending on how far you are into a match, but if you get the drop on someone at the beginning of the first round, get a knockdown and land a meaty on their wakeup, I have seen it do some at least psychological damage as well as fill the install gauge all the way up.

[chzchan]

On another topic :

 

Neither Konan nor Kuresu managed to qualify for Arc Revo

 

I'm just sad.

 

I was just snooping around twitter, but did Konan just recently qualify last minute or do I need to get my info checked?

[Zouf]

Double checked, you are right. He's against Tsujikawa (KO) / Promete (LI) in the first round http://arcsystemworks.jp/arc-revo2014/tournament/images/04c.pdf

 

I have no idea who's his teammate though (a Nu player)

[Kiba]

I believe the Nu is Yoshiki

[chzchan]

Whoa boy. Well I'm happy again. Let's see how far they get. Yoshiki is really strong, so I hope they'll be able to get through a lot.

Which qualifier did Konan win?

[Kiba]

Shinjuku Sportsland I think?

[Zouf]

Yep Shinjuku Sportsland. Don't know if they uploaded the tournament somewhere