Airk Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 I will be at Evo; My ONE goal is to win my first match against some nameless dude so that I can go on to get curbstomped by Dogura. It's not quite a Woolie moment, but it's pretty close.
zaeris Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Anyone entering with tsubaki is quite brave, lol Awell good luck
chzchan Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Been experimenting with 236D resets. I haven't gone too far into the SMP routes, but just starting out I found a simple one that feels nearly as great as 236C > Command Grab in how magically the spacing and timing fit together. Crouching Confirm (usually 6A) > 5CC > 6BB > 236C > Command Grab which is just perfect, especially if you know your opponent does not have a meterless reversal. This one works the same way spacing-wise. It is really simple. X > 236D > 5BB > Command Grab. Not sure if it is as great as chargeless frame data wise, though. It is probably mashable. Anyone else have ideas?
zaeris Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Been experimenting with 236D resets. I haven't gone too far into the SMP routes, but just starting out I found a simple one that feels nearly as great as 236C > Command Grab in how magically the spacing and timing fit together. Crouching Confirm (usually 6A) > 5CC > 6BB > 236C > Command Grab which is just perfect, especially if you know your opponent does not have a meterless reversal. This one works the same way spacing-wise. It is really simple. X > 236D > 5BB > Command Grab. Not sure if it is as great as chargeless frame data wise, though. It is probably mashable. Anyone else have ideas? Just for reference it is better to go x>236d> straight into a command grab after a long combo because the stagger isn't that long on SMP or combo starting with 5a or s starter, adding 5bb can have complication one being they can barrier block which ruins any command grab set up, which is what people who know the tsubaki match up will do is barrier her normal and your command grab will whiff. At best you can maybe get a 5a>command grab mix up.
Daedron Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Just for reference it is better to go x>236d> straight into a command grab after a long combo because the stagger isn't that long on SMP or combo starting with 5a or s starter, adding 5bb can have complication one being they can barrier block which ruins any command grab set up, which is what people who know the tsubaki match up will do is barrier her normal and your command grab will whiff. At best you can maybe get a 5a>command grab mix up. I don't see how barrier comes into play here since the 5BB is done as a combo. And yes Chzchan, it's mashable but you can potentially bait the mash by doing a late-gatling into 2B/5C.
zaeris Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 I don't see how barrier comes into play here since the 5BB is done as a combo. And yes Chzchan, it's mashable but you can potentially bait the mash by doing a late-gatling into 2B/5C. As I said earlier for 236d ender combo where it is an smp or A starter, otherwise if got a good starter like 5b or 5c I wouldn't advise wasting a charge for a ground reset when you can get a carry combo and kd. I wouldn't advise 5bb command in hit stun to me it has an air of obvious resets attempt, maybe it's me and likely will back dash or jump but also from any A starter the combo decay will usually make 23d 5bb uncomboable. Anyway I will go with my original statement, use the resets for any A starter but you can some solid stuff with N starter.
Airk Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Oh good! So the 6A > 5C > 6BB > 236C > RESET! trick still works. That was one of my favorite gimmicks in Extend and for some reason I thought it didn't work in CP. For 236D stuff, I mostly just do Stuff > 236D > 5B(B) > 6A/3C/Bait (Depending on my meter and how my opponent likes to block/mash) Unfortunately, it's harder to tag 236D into a combo now depending on spacing, but it DOES work off of 5A as long as you didn't dink around doing 2BB or something. I mostly only go for this if A) I think I can kill them off the reset or B) I want the sideswitch anyway. Case B means it's way less obvious that you are trying for a reset since you want to put them in the corner anyway. Still not sure what Zaeris is talking about with regard to barrier blocking though. Doesn't seem relevant to the discussion at all.
chzchan Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 I wouldn't advise 5bb command in hit stun to me it has an air of obvious resets attempt I have actually been trying to come up with these because I thought 236D > Reset was incredibly obvious. Also it requires a bit of delay if you go for the command grab so that it isn't a purple grab. I'll try to think of some other things.
zaeris Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 I have actually been trying to come up with these because I thought 236D > Reset was incredibly obvious. Also it requires a bit of delay if you got for the command grab so that it isn't a purple grab. I'll try to think of some other things. Guess I have been playing too much nu these day lol I should go with your train of thoughts. My ideal way of using command resets because it's the best situation: Combo from 5a because you don't get a great return anyway. 5a5a>5bb>5cc>236d problems that may occur i just tested in training mode. 5a 5b you can screw up if you can't mash fast enough lol 5cc into 236d requires first frame cancel although distance may be an issue but a first frame cancel should allow for combo so you need rymth of x2 5c into 236 d quick Problem 3 adding links after 236d eg 5b or 5a, it's doable and not too bad but you can screw up and the opponent will be able to block if you didn't link it as early as possible. So for mix up off 236d in that situation you can Command throw link using slight delay Dash 5a link into command grab no delays requires 5bb link and slight delay for command grab Or 5b 6a/6b/2b Anyway why I think a naked command grab is better off 236d probably because your opponent expect you to be able to combo off it or correcting dp motion from left to right after cross over (236d) requires some speedy hands. but really it is about conditioning so 5bb command can work, if your opponent doesn't know when your combo will end. I guess in general you should show your opponent two things that you can combo off 236d and that you can apply a reset the second time. Edit: guess I will sit in my quiet corner lol,
chzchan Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 I guess in general you should show your opponent two things that you can combo off 236d and that you can apply a reset the second time. Okay I'll keep that in mind. I'll use this in the same mindset as when I would use charge cancel pressure then go in for follow-up frame traps after training my opponent to expect a charge cancel. I do end up getting in a lot of 5A starters, it works out better. Thanks.
BatousaiJ Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 For 236D stuff, I mostly just do Stuff > 236D > 5B(B) > 6A/3C/Bait (Depending on my meter and how my opponent likes to block/mash) 3C seems pretty ambitious there since if they block it, you're in terrible, terrible position and you won't even get anything out of it unless you get FC or have meter to RC. Why not do either Stuff > 236D > 5BB > 6A or delayed 2BB as your high and low game? I used that often for resets and it works very well and after I showed that a bunch of times, they start to mash DP in which you can 5BB > Charge Cancel > Block to bait it out.
Airk Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Well, yes, one generally does not do this without meter. Delay 2B works as well.
chzchan Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 I felt motivated to come up with other things besides the corner fireball oki that I could use chargeless in the corner for some reason. Actually it might just be because it is the only thing I ever go for in the corner if I am empty. I have been testing recordings of one sorta strange one that I actually stumbled upon in training mode when trying to figure out what I could do against characters whose hitboxes make the fireball oki harder or impossible to land. It utilizes SMP so it might look super obvious, but from testing it against myself it is actually pretty difficult to deal with unless you know exactly what to do in the situation. It is pretty simple. It works so long as it is started with an N starter, so no 5a/2a/j.A. It can also only have a max of 4 normals in the combo including the starter before going into a special or else the timing will get messed up, so if it is started with 6A, you have to go into 236C after 6B instead of 6BB. It also needs a minimum of 2 normals as well, so 6B > 236B messes up the timing as well. It does not work off of grabs. Here are some examples. 5BB > 5CC >236B > 214B > 22B(max) > 5D > 5B/C > 236A > 214B(SMP) > 22B(w) > 6C 6A > 5CC > 6B > 236C > 214B > 22B(max) > 5D > 5B/C > 236A > 214B(SMP) > 22B(w) > 6C So what happens here is the SMP from the two 214B specials makes the tech window appear earlier and during their descent from being launched by 214B. Doing 6C right after the whiffed 22B will catch any direction air tech if they don't barrier on wakeup because of 6C being air unblockable. If they neutral air tech, 6C will not catch them before they hit the ground, but they will be in blockstun. I am pretty sure this is safe against DPs that aren't Ragna's because they will still be in the air for a split second before touching the ground and I have yet to successfully buffer the DP myself after having the recording playback against me in training mode. Using this online has been pretty damn rewarding because I have caught so many people trying to forward air tech and gone straight into usually a big damage Mugen combo using Tsubaki's best possible starter. This works so well because the spacing between them and the ground after the earliest possible tech will make their hitbox get stuck on yours in their attempt to hop over you with a forward air tech. There are a few huge flaws in this, however. If they choose to not hold down A, B, or C to recover as early as possible, they can get out and you will be super vulnerable. There is a good side to this, though. If they actually delay the tech, they will be hit with 6C and rolls are 100% impossible. The only way to get out of this is if they wait until the moment they hit the ground to neutral tech. If they don't neutral tech in the short time frame they have between when they touch the ground and when 6C hits, they will eat 6C and the combo will go blue. When I mentioned above that it is hard to deal with I meant it because even I have trouble timing the neutral tech correctly after being on the receiving end for hours in training mode. Huge downside to this is that there really is not much that can be done out of 6C because of all the SMP and other hits that have already gone in. I guess you can go for a blade super maybe, but that requires 50 heat. So that's it. It works on every single character with a small exception being that you have to use a dashing 5C without 5D for Carl specifically. Oh yeah, as a sort of side thing I also figured out at least some kind of advantage to using j.236A > j.214X enders in the corner now. If you know your opponent will try to opt for a forward air tech after the combo ends just jump straight up without a direction and grab. You will be right behind them when you grab them which makes it pretty damn safe. This beats out every move they could possibly buffer (except Ragna's air DP) and you will get a throw counter if they were trying to mash anything. Of course this loses to delays and whatnot, but it is worth it if you can make the call. I guess you can even throw out some jumping normals if you want because you will be behind them, but they are not nearly as rewarding as an air grab. Perfect thing to use if you had caught them with a command grab as they hit the ground after a j.236A >j.214X ender in the corner previously and they are weary of neutral air teching.
BatousaiJ Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 That's a neat gimmick for a reset, chzchan. I wouldn't mind using that from time to time to see if I can catch someone who techs without thinking too much.
chzchan Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 Awesome. Right now I'm trying to figure out what to do if they happen to air barrier it because the pushback spacing is so random at times. Apparently you can also go into 6B or 6A as well because their startup times are pretty close to 6C's with 6A being a bit longer and 6B being a bit shorter. The payout is not as great as 6C if you do get in the hit, though. 6A will always be a perfectly timed meaty if they air tech in a direction, but it is not fast enough to catch them with the air unblockable (unless you get the cleanest timing possible). It will hit them right as they touch the ground. Use against people who hold down back on wakeup. You will also get a FC if they attempt to mash. I think they can mash out if they neutral air tech, but it is pretty hard because just a couple frames too late and that will be a FC to the face. I am testing right now. 6B looks confusing as hell because nobody would expect a low hitting attack to be air unblockable but it also needs to be slightly delayed because it starts up a bit too fast. After hitting with it you can go into a fully charged 22B/D in the corner because 6BB air hit causes sliding. Delaying this is also another easy meaty, though it is not as great as 6A for pressure unless you have some charge or 50 heat. I guess you can go into 5A after 6B but that will trade with characters who have 5 frame jabs. One gigantic advanatge this has over 6C and 6A is that you can use the 6BB followup to catch delayed techs if they happen to do the neutral tech right as they touch the ground which is the biggest weakness of the original 6C setup. The 6B route's weakness actually happens to be backward air techs because it makes 6B and 6BB whiff in all cases and even allows your opponent to j.A mash out of the setup, but who in the right mind backward techs in the corner? These other two options are probably not worth it compared to 6C because of 6C's superior active frames.
zaeris Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 here a gimmick reset if anyone wants to try 5bb 5cc 22d 6c ct 5c 2cc 236c 5c 2c 236c(whiff) 214d it actually puts forward tech back into the corner with a cross over 214d. the charm to block it with forward tech is going 4 and 6 when you tech immediately however if you just hold 4 and tch you will get hit after teching from 214d. edit: needs to be barrier block otherwise a simply honest neutral tech or back tech with barrier is the simple way out.
chzchan Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 Sounds pretty neat, but it requires 2 charges to pull off. I'll try it out a few times and see how successful I am. There has to be another route that doesn't involve 22D, so I will look for it. Have you checked if it is mashable by jumping jabs? Oh wait does the invuln from 214D actually take care of that?
Airk Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 214D doesn't have invuln against jumping anything, so it won't. It might still WORK, but if it does, it won't be because of 214D invuln.
zaeris Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 Sorry adding more test Let see I couldn't see myself using ja because after using auto forward air tech it does look like you won't have time to air jab however you can double jump but that is reading the mix up and knowing about I don't think it's reactable in a sense. Last point a delay forward tech has enough invuln avoid it and a non tech will cause an amp that makes evading easier. So it only serve one purpose of auto forward air tech. Auto tch with j.a will land you a counter hit. Edit One stock set up 5bb5cc 623c delay j214a 5c 2c 236c 214b 22b charge 5d 5c 2c 236c whiff 214 3cc fch 5c 2cc ct 6cc(1hit) 236c 214b 22b charged 5d 5c 2c 236c whiff 214d 5c ch 6c (tkj214c) 623c delay j214a 5c 2c 236c 214b 22b charge 5d 5c 2c 236whiff 214d Forward corner throw 236c 214b 22b 5d 5c 2c 236c whiff 214d Air throw 6c 214b 22b charge 5c 2c 214d 5a 5bb 5c 236a 214b 22b 5c 2c 236c whiff 214d It follows the same pattern as orb set up, the above should cover all starters
chzchan Posted July 17, 2014 Posted July 17, 2014 Forward corner throw 236c 214b 22b 5d 5c 2c 236c whiff 214d 5a 5bb 5c 236a 214b 22b 5c 2c 236c whiff 214d It follows the same pattern as orb set up, the above should cover all starters Probably the two most common routes to occur. I'm still not sure about actually going for this unless I have 50 heat, though. A blocked 214D followup if they neutral air tech is -6 and you will be pretty close to them. Also if they delay tech, 236C will hit and 214D will whiff if they decide to tech after they see the combo go blue leaving them at an advantage. Also 214D is not the best starter. 5A > 5BB > 5CC > 236B > 214B > 22B(max) > 5C > 236C(w) > 214D also works. It is also easier to vary. For example, you don't even need to start out with 5A here. You can even go with 5C if you want because even though 2C can still connect after the 5C sliding pickup, 236C will still whiff because 5C does not have enough hitstun. Still pretty cool.
zaeris Posted July 17, 2014 Posted July 17, 2014 Well just for reference air block adds 2+ more frames of block stun and barrier adds +1 so that's 3+, other factors would be landing since being low to ground with block stun should make is hard to impossible to retaliate in the air. Anyway it's a gimmick only use it when you don't drop combos lol i'm like no one really delay tech vs tsubaki unless they see fireball oki, just complete your combo and usually people will try to auto tech until they see its a hard KD. Tsubaki combo does have Few tough link and people do take advantage of that in praying that you do drop combo. Or better yet if you do drop combos often lol they are likely to auto tech forward. Anyway 214d is a bad to decent starter but it shines in its forward momentum allow you to cross over and it requires barrier to air block it or else. It's still a gimmick so I don't expect it to be use but you can giggle in matches if you land it and laugh.
chzchan Posted July 17, 2014 Posted July 17, 2014 Since I posted I had been using this if I ever got a grab in the corner. It is the perfect thing to do out of a Grab > Crush Trigger combo in the corner because of the time decay. Grab > Crush Trigger > 6CC > 236C > 214B > 5C > 236C(w) > 214D® for 3508 damage I'm still not sure what the most optimal combo after 214D is, though. I can surprisingly go into my own gimmick reset with the 214B SMP and 6C after landing that 214D because it allows for a combo with 3 normals off an N starter before 236C hahaha. 214D > 22B(w) > 5C > 2C > 236C > 214B > 22B(max) > 5B > 236A > 214B > 22B(w) > 6C® Man I'm having so much fun. You have any more ideas?
zaeris Posted July 17, 2014 Posted July 17, 2014 I ended up hiding my post so I have no idea to restore it lol, retyping............... anyway 5c vs 5c 2c depending on combo decay is interesting combo off corner 214d thinking 214d combo 1 stock 214d->2cc>IAD jcc>5c>2cc delay> IAD jcc>5c 2c> 236c ectera 2988 damage~ 214d>22b charge>5c 2cc>236c>5a>5c>2c>236b>214b>22b 2901damage, hard kd if you 5a at lowest point. 2 stock 214d->22D charged>6c jd jc 5c 2cc 236c 5a 5c 2c 236b 214b 22b 3552 damage~ 2 stock +ct 214d >22d charged > 6c ct 5c 2cc 236c 5c 2c 236b 214b 22b charge 4320 damage~ 2stock + ct + OD 214d 22d charge OD 6c ct 6bb 421d 236d dash back 5c 2c 236a 214b 22b 4798 damage~ what are you getting off your 214d? p.s I like your 6c idea it works vs forward and neutral tech lol, and it requires barrier, and since it hits airborne, they cant dp also lol. although I feel it kinda waste the damage potential off 5b or 6a into a reset. anyway here is a loop for your 214b smp gimmick 6cc 236c 214b 22b charge 5c 2c 236b 2124b 22b whiff 6c
chzchan Posted July 17, 2014 Posted July 17, 2014 I didn't think a double IAD would work off of this, but sure I'll try it out. The second single charge combo you listed is actually similar to one I came up with. See, I actually think a ground ender is not the best idea here, especially after using 22B already due to SMP. 214D > 22B(max) > 5D > 5C > 2CC > 236C > 214B > 22B(w) > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A for 3125 214D > 22B(max) > 5D > 5C > 2CC > 236C > 214B > 22B(w) > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214B for 3072 As for 2 stock combos, I had one that also utilized 22D. 214D > 22D(max) > 6CC > 236C > 214B > 22B > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A for 3838 214D > 22D(max) > 6CC > 236C > 214B > 22B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214 for 3779 That 2 stock CT combo is pretty damn good. I have yet to come up with one that beats it by very much. 214D > 22D(max) > Crush Trigger > 6CC > 236C > 214B > 22B(w) > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A for 4355 214D > 22D(max) > Crush Trigger > 6CC > 236C > 214B > 22B(w) > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A for 4275 See, I don't mind going into the reset because it is a gamble with a huge payout if it works, and, if the corner fireball oki does not work on the character I am fighting, all the better.
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