[P4A] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "Ace Detective"

[Zeromus_X]

^What is this OS against Elizabeth?

[Ichipoo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbu2BodOwco

[mynus]

I would like to see this listed in the data thread/wiki plz.

Air Throw counts (1) tick towards SMP.

Bullet stance and All (5) bullets counts (2) ticks towards SMP.

ground throw & C-follow counts (2) ticks towards SMP.

AoA~C counts (3) ticks towards SMP.

AoA~D counts (3) ticks towards SMP.

gotcha.

[MikeySupreme]

So any noteworthy option selects we should be wary of? I think Naoto has that 5B > 5C one against Elizabeth, anymore?

5AAA, safe jump, J.C ~236B is also really good against liz as it always will FC

[PANDEMlC]

Maybe this is common knowledge but, do characters fall faster or go different heights during combos? I noticed I was dropping SMP loops specifically to Akihiko online. So I went to training mode to see if it was just a mental/coincidental thing or if there was actually a difference. It feels like there is. I can't tell if he's falling faster or if he's just not going as high but it definitely seems like the timing is dependent on the character.

Also do traps launch to different heights? I'm not on the game but I feel like I remember C Traps going higher than D Traps but I think I'm just making that up. The only reason I'm thinking this is because I remember doing A Fangs after setting different traps and the timing felt different.

[Zeromus_X]

I don't think this game has anything too advanced like character weight classes, but I could be wrong. It could just be a character hitbox issue. As for traps, it looks like they have the same launch height, but C trap has less untechable time. C trap will let the opponent tech in the air, while D trap is untechable until they hit the ground.

[Kyle]

^Teddie is Floaty.

Chie, Mitsuru, Yukiko are hitbox issues.

IMHO

Also, regarding OS against Elizabeth. That is weak. It's much better to start an offense w/ 2A or 5A. If you confirm the moves whiffs, just 7-Jump and descending Ch J.C for an easy SMP combo.

J.C, B, C, 2C, Mudoon, 214D, AA, 236A~D, (D-trap hits), 44, 2[C], 66C, (236B~D)x8, 236A~D.

Reminds me, I need to complete my furious action baiting punishing post.... will resurrect & add to my honey-do.

Most peoples furious actions can be REACTED to if you've setup the right oki/offense. Example: Naoto's only hits in front of her, you should start Oki w/ crossups so people mashing on B+D will have it whiff & you get CounterHit City.

Safe Jump against Yu & Yukiko, etc.

more to come.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Kyle

[rochus]

Amazing vids with Denpa. I jotted down some of the combos and setups he used in the videos for future reference, lots of tricks to take note of.

236B~D FC > 2A > 2B > 5C > 2[C] > 5B > jD > j214C+D > falling jB (j214C hits) > land 5C > 236A~D (214D hits) > ... (4.9k, 25% meter)

Very stylin', possible to go into loop with only 25 meter off an FC?

Just for the record, as it wasn't clear to me, the loop you get off this is...

236B~D FC > 2A > 2B > 5C > 2[C] > 5B > jD > j214C+D > falling jB (j214C hits) > land 5C > [236A~D (214D hits) > 214D] x 5 (6.4 k, 25 meter)

only need one hit of 1st 236A, after that both.

Edited September 20, 2012 by rochus

[Kyle]

Anyone have answers on which moves of Naoto have attributes?

Pretty sure her 2B is AntiAir attribute (if that is what the category is called). The only reason we can beat Teddies J.A & most others cannot.

Anyone able to air throw into Mudoon? ... could be sick-nasty combo video setup. Sometimes, when I C-shot into Mudoon, I delay too much & they are too high @ the corner. Mudoon does not connect, they air recover into Mudoon. I have tried to air throw or antiair 2B this recovery, but haven't found the successful timing yet.

Edit: Also, gonna confirm if we can punish Yukikio's B+D w/ JC+D. Would be smokin hot.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Kyle

[Kyle]

Mudoon only has one hit. So after it's blocked, they cannot be airthrown or UB 2B'd. takes Mudoon resets out of the picture.

Now Yukikios B+D cannot be air thrown as it's completely throw invulnerable.

Maybe I can come up w/ a gimmicky c-trap reset, into muddonxx Air throw.... will play w/ that for laughs.

[Kyle]

Was playin against a Chie on PSN yesterday. Classroom stage. I won the first round convincingly. Finished w/ a bunch of traps, I know Chie had 00-skulls and I did not use Mudoon or Hamama.

Round two starts up and I briefly check my opponents skulls (to measure out my strategy). I watch Chie regain to 07-Skulls and like... wtf. I didn't use/execute death. Anyone else had something like this? Anything else triggers/classified as DEATH status at 0-skulls. Was it a funny post-KO glitch...

[OutlawVinegar]

I'm not sure if I understand. During round 2, the Chie player regained how many skulls, exactly?

If it was 7, that's normal. If you deplete skulls from a character and win a round without using Mudoon/Hamaon, the other player recovers half of whatever Fate Counters they were missing, rounding up.

So if they were at 8, they'll recover 3, totalling 11 Counters.

If they were at 3, they'll recover 5, to 8.

If they were at 2, they'll recover 6, to 8, etc.

[Ichipoo]

7 is normal if they had 0 skulls after a round since the way the Fate Gauge works is that the opponent regains half of how many skulls they've lost rounded up. So half of 13 is 6.5, which is rounded up to 7.

#mathnerd

[ludwig van]

@Kyle: the information for that has been on the data thread since forever, and has also been on the Wiki for a while now. >_> But yeah, Ichipoo and Outlaw basically covered it. And just FYI, winning a round w/ IK fills the Fate meter back up to the full 13.

[ludwig van]

If anyone's interested there's been a Naoto Skype chat for a while now that has had some fairly decent discussion. I'm not sure if it deserves it's own topic but post your Skype name here or PM it to me and I'll add you to it.

[The_Crazyasian]

I'd like to be added to the Skype chat :D

Skype name: the_crazyasian

[Ichipoo]

Was playin against a Chie on PSN yesterday. Classroom stage. I won the first round convincingly. Finished w/ a bunch of traps, I know Chie had 00-skulls and I did not use Mudoon or Hamama.

Round two starts up and I briefly check my opponents skulls (to measure out my strategy). I watch Chie regain to 07-Skulls and like... wtf. I didn't use/execute death. Anyone else had something like this? Anything else triggers/classified as DEATH status at 0-skulls. Was it a funny post-KO glitch...

Oh my god I just noticed this.

If anyone's interested there's been a Naoto Skype chat for a while now that has had some fairly decent discussion. I'm not sure if it deserves it's own topic but post your Skype name here or PM it to me and I'll add you to it.

Ugh, I should join the chat again. I've been reading your conversations and I've learn quite a bit.

[mynus]

If anyone's interested there's been a Naoto Skype chat for a while now that has had some fairly decent discussion. I'm not sure if it deserves it's own topic but post your Skype name here or PM it to me and I'll add you to it.

This Please,

Skype = mynusdono

I would like to see this listed in the data thread/wiki plz.

Air Throw counts (1) tick towards SMP.

Bullet stance and All (5) bullets counts (2) ticks towards SMP.

ground throw & C-follow counts (2) ticks towards SMP.

AoA~C counts (3) ticks towards SMP.

AoA~D counts (3) ticks towards SMP.

Added.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, at or near the corner Naoto can easily chain all of her normals (save 2C & 5D) into her R-action (projectile ver.) to punish ground based bursts (air based bursts can of course be countered but the projectile follow-up will whiff) instead of jump-cancelling her normals to try and bait/punish. Not only does the resulting punish combo (if you have the meter) do 7.4k, but they lose 2 ticks off of their fate counter to boot.

What makes this even better is that on block, Naoto cannot jump-cancel her 5B. However, throwing out 5B and letting it recover, can bait the opponent into counter-poking and then being blown up by the R-action if you have good reactions. This becomes real easy if you space yourself properly, as they would need to throw out a move with more range, which would be easier to react to.

Off of R-action:

R-action (projectile follow up) > 5B > 5C > iad j.B > j.C > Mudoon > Megiddo D > 236A~D > [Megiddo D hit] > 2[C] > 2B > 5C >[236B~D x9] > 236A~D.

-7.4k

*note:

when directly in the corner, the projectile hit of the R-action will cause the opponent to fly over Naoto's head. You can quickly dash under however and still connect the 5B easily (or 2A/5A if you prefer). Don't wait too long to dash under or you will get a backdash instead of forward dash out of the corner.

Edited September 26, 2012 by mynus

[PANDEMlC]

Does anyone know if this video has been uploaded to Youtube?

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18691185

For some reason I get an error message telling me I can't watch it. It's supposed to show how Naoto punishes every characters DP.

[mynus]

not sure but im downloading it off nico right now so Ill do a search and upload it or point it to Jourdal if its not. However that specific video it is only a tutorial on punishing Kanji's R-action.

Here is the playlist for the other chars...http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/2695184

Edited September 29, 2012 by mynus

[Rikir]

Hey guys I found Naoto's frame data:

http://famitsu.jp/fmbk/p4u/table/07.html

2[C] is +8 on block which explains why its so easy to frame trap with.

[Kivorav]

Yeah, I like that normal so much, the only problem is that those who catches it on early can punish it as the +8 is if the move is fully charged.

[Zeromus_X]

5A -2, 5AA -1, and 2A -3. 5B only -5 is nice as well, I like to tick throw with it thanks to the forward momentum. Won't be doing any Chie-level staggering any time soon but still not bad.

EDIT: Added summaries of the videos for the setups against Kanji and Yukiko's DPs.

vs :ballKA:'s DP:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18691185

http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18691185

Jump up > falling jC can safejump Kanji's DP after a 236A midscreen (no trap set). It'll safejump the DP without spending a card, and meaty his 2B and command throw. However, if Kanji has meter, you have to watch out for wakeup chair super or Awakening super.

After blocking the DP, you can get a 5C CH > 2[C] combo, but be aware of Kanji's meter in case they Super Cancel. To bait this, block the DP, then jump forward and Air Turn into a jC crossup, or jump forward jC into a safejump, which will allow you to block the chair super with the right timing.

Punish combos:

5C CH > 2[C] > dash 5AAA > Ax5 (autocombo) (2434 dmg, builds 32% meter)

(Naoto cornered) back Throw (into corner) > Mudoon > 214D > Sweep > 236A~B(once)~D > 2A > 5B > 5C > 236B~[D]x7 > 236A~D (5460 dmg, uses 50% meter)

(Naoto cornered) 5C CH > 214A+B > Mudoon > 214D > 2A > 5B > 236B~D > 2[C] > dash 2B > 236B~[D]x11 > 236B~D (8192 dmg, uses 75% meter)

5C CH > 2[C] > dash 5AA > 5C > 236B~D > dash 5C > IAD jA > jC > 5C > 236A~D (3374 dmg)

5C CH > 2[C] > dash 2A > 5AAA > Mudoon (link) > (dash up) 214D > Sweep > 236A~D > dash 2B > 236B~[D]x10 > 236A (7632 dmg, uses 50% meter))

5C CH > 2[C] > dash 5AA > 5B > 2C > Mudoon > (dash up) 214D > 2B > 236A~D > 236B~[D]x13 > 236A~D (9121 dmg, uses 50% meter)

(near corner) 5C CH > 2[C] > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236B~D > 5C > IAD jA > jC > 236A~D (3643 dmg)

(near corner) 5C CH > 2[C] > dash 5AAA > Cx5 > Mudoon > 214D > 236A~D > 236B~[D]x10 > 236A~D (7757 dmg)

Punish for 5D: Block the first hit of Kanji's 5D > dash up 2C to hit his Persona

Vs 's DP:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1344964233

http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1344964233

Yukiko's DP actually has a guard point, so you can 5A > jump cancel and air block like against Chie's DP. 5A > 214B (backdash aim) will also work. Unfortunately, you can't land and punish with 5B if she Super Cancels. However, you can always land and get a CH 5A punish while she's still in the air.

Punish combos:

5A CH > IAD > jA > jC > dash 5C > 236B~D > dash 5C > IAD > jA > jC > 236A~D (2459 dmg)

5A CH > IAD > jA > jC > dash 5C > 236B~D > dash 5C > IAD > jA > jC > land > jB > jC > jB > jC > 236236A (3148 and Silence, uses 50% meter)

5A CH > IAD > jA > jC > dash 5C > Mudoon > (dash up) 214D > Sweep > 236A~D (D trap hits) > 214C > 214A~B(once)~D (C trap hits) > 5C > 236B~[D]x11 (8.5k/death, uses 50% meter)

(Combo vidya material) 5A CH > IAD jA > jC > 214214A~D > 5C (into opposite corner) > Mudoon > 214D > 236A~D > 214C > 214A~B(once)~D > 5C > 236B~[D]x10 > 214214A~C (8710 dmg, requires Awakening and 150% meter)

(near corner) 5A (CH) > 5AAA > Cx5 > Mudoon > 214D > 236A~D > 214C > 5C > 236B~[D]x7 > 236A~D (5722 dmg, uses 50% meter)

Also, after blocking the DP, you can dash up 2A and still have time to block in case they Super Cancel. Against Maragidyne/Awakening Super, you can dash up 2A, and then dash and Throw to go through it. If they SC into D Maragidyne, the pillars of fire will move inward from the edges of the screen, so you have to Throw, and delay the C followup to avoid them.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Zeromus_X

[Kyle]

Burst Baiting/punishing during combos:

Jump Cancel & Block.

More Yomi, but CAN be done on reaction. Just takes loads of training. You see the burst, just jump cancel & block.

Super Cancel to Reset

236236B is projectile invul during startup, so, YOMI and force the reset/extended BnB in the corner. Midscreen you may be able to get more DMG w/ 236236A instead. More beneficial against mute preferred opponents. Yukiko, Eliz & Teddie come to mind.

OMC & Block

More Yomi, but CAN be done on reaction. Just takes loads of training. You see the burst, just OMC & block. This is more DMG than the super cancel, & Safer & can still pick up DMG if they didn't burst. Preferred if you are using a move that does not Jump Cancel or have already exhausted all of your air options.

Disjointed Hitboxes

certain attacks are disjointed, such that the opponent burst & only your Persona gets hit. Naoto loses a "card", but can still reactivity get a large punish on the burst recovery. if you have 50-meter & they bursted closer to the corner, that's death.

Burst-safe disjointed combos:

2[C], 5C, 214A~AAAAA, Super of choice.

After Mudoon, If you input 214C, 214D fast enough at the right distance, the entire thing is burst safe. Often, people burst after Muddon finishes and the C-trap connects.

OMB to Whiff

Did this yesterday & was amazed at the results. Here's a scenario: You are doing the SMP loop and a few reps into it you notice your opponents burst gauge is almost full. bad feeling. If you had 50-meter, the moment they got their burst would be a good time to 236236B cancel for the reset/pickup. However, you don't have 50 meter & you 236B is not jump cancel enabled. The solutions is to OMB the hit that does give the opponent the burst. Two scenarios unfold. I'll explain each

1.) During SMP loops, opponent burst as soon as they get the ability to. Naoto does OMB at the same time. OMB has invincibility, opponents burst whiffs entirely, OMB has better recovery, Naoto lands on the ground and get's a full punish as the opponent descends from the blue-burst recovery. Just be mindful that your spacing causes 5A to miss. Should punish w/ the typical 5C, IAD, J.B, J.C into whatever is optimal.

2.) During SMP loops, opponent does not burst as soon as they get the ability to. Naoto does OMB at that time. Opponent is launched up. Naoto can finish more DMG while maintaing burst-safe attacks. If the opponent burst at any point onward, Naoto gets a full punish.

236B, 236B... 236B, (Gets Burst) OMB, 44, 2[C], C, 214A~AAAAA, 236236A.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Kyle

[mynus]

Very smart, I will try to implement these options.