Teutonicknight Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 So what I'm seeing overall from what everyone says; a bit weaker, lost a couple good combo routes, nerfs to a few key moves, topped off with near-useless other tweaks. Wow... So are there any bright sides to these changes? ...And I mean real bright sides, no nonsense.
mAc Chaos Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Mori was just trying to bring her in line with the beating she got in Alter Memory.
Arc Raizen Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Makoto's minimum damage for Particle Flare, according to the frame data, is 1562. OD Particle Flare tends to be fairly important to Makoto to finish off opponents, but you usually never see its minimum damage matter since it's almost always being used as a round-ender when the opponent has virtually no health left. That being said, OD Particle Flare is the go-to source of damage for Makoto with early OD combos: you use OD, you end with Particle Flare. So, nerfing its minimum damage is going to immediately nerf all non-round ending OD combos from Makoto. Lets take a look at some other minimum damage numbers for various supers: Ragna OD Carnage Scissors - 1410 Jin OD Touga Hyoujin - 1300 Noel OD Fenrir - 1200 minimum Arakune OD F Inverse - 715 Litchi OD All Green - 1246 Litchi OD All Terminals - 1580 Hakumen OD Shippu - 1720 (assuming no charge) Hakumen OD Yukikaze - 1012 Nu OD Calamity Sword - 1500 Tsubaki OD Confutatis Maledictis - 680/810/1089/1320/1760/2080 (damage dependent on charge) Mu OD Wisdom of the Divine - 1360 Valkenhayn OD Sturm Wolf - 1600 Platinum OD Cure Dot Typhoon - 1172 Makoto is a bit higher than average in this list, but clearly not the strongest (Hakumen/Valk and possibly Tsubaki). I see no immediate notion that Makoto's super is vastly superior to any other, especially when she is so reliant on it and many of these characters just throw out the super if they get the chance, but hardly need to use them every chance they get. I think the best comparison is Ragna who gets slightly more than 100 less damage off of Carnage Scissors. If that's what Makoto is getting, I'll take it. 100 damage is probably not going to matter, but rather just piss me off because its so unwarranted. Any lower than that and Makoto is going to have not only weak neutral game and horrible matchups, but also a below average OD Super, leaving her with just about literally nothing she does better than anyone else. tl;dr - Mori......why the hell do you hate Makoto? Do you literally think this is balanced or are you doing this to purposely un-balance a character in a highly regarded competitive fighting game?
StarGazer Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Mori isn't the one responsible for gameplay changes. Its Pachi.
Celerity Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Makoto's minimum damage for Particle Flare, according to the frame data, is 1562. OD Particle Flare tends to be fairly important to Makoto to finish off opponents, but you usually never see its minimum damage matter since it's almost always being used as a round-ender when the opponent has virtually no health left. That being said, OD Particle Flare is the go-to source of damage for Makoto with early OD combos: you use OD, you end with Particle Flare. So, nerfing its minimum damage is going to immediately nerf all non-round ending OD combos from Makoto.I don't really understand your reasoning here. Why would the minimum damage matter any less whether you're using it as a round-ender or not? If your OD combo now deals 5800 instead of 6000, that's 200 more damage you need to deal to your opponent before you can end the round. You almost always see the minimum damage in effect, because most of Makoto's OD combos are long enough to trigger minimum damage scaling, at least on the final hit of PF. This nerf should negatively affect almost every combo with a PF ender.Also, 1562 is her 1.0 damage. I'm not sure what her new damage is.
Arc Raizen Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I don't really understand your reasoning here. Why would the minimum damage matter any less whether you're using it as a round-ender or not? If your OD combo now deals 5800 instead of 6000, that's 200 more damage you need to deal to your opponent before you can end the round. You almost always see the minimum damage in effect, because most of Makoto's OD combos are long enough to trigger minimum damage scaling, at least on the final hit of PF. This nerf should negatively affect almost every combo with a PF ender. Also, 1562 is her 1.0 damage. I'm not sure what her new damage is. At least for me, I generally don't use OD unless I know I will kill the opponent with it or I am already at <35% health and more than likely the next OD combo kills them, so half the time the combo kills them, half the time PF kills, but it's very rare that the damage difference between OD and non-OD PF would have left the opponent alive (e.g. using OD PF when they have <1k health left). And yes, that is her 1.0 damage. I was comparing it to the rest of the casts 1.0 damage. When someone confirms the 1.1 damage, we will know whether to just shrug it off or panic.
Teutonicknight Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Mori isn't the one responsible for gameplay changes. Its Pachi. Mori has to be the one who gives the OK for that stuff to slide though. Or something along those lines... And if Makoto's OD is already pretty much average now, and that's the 1.0 damage... And with the eventual nerf coming along... Crap man. Arcsys lost it. They pretty much just said "Alright, f**k this character." Kind of glad I didn't get the game yet tbh, because it is starting to sound like Extend all over again.
milesw Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I8wX3zsKnQ#t=221 Acorn being used in game Crap man. Arcsys lost it. They pretty much just said "Alright, f**k this character." Kind of glad I didn't get the game yet tbh, because it is starting to sound like Extend all over again. okay we get it. Lets stop complaining nothing can be done. Arc will still have our money.
Teutonicknight Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 ...Welp, acorn sucks. The j.B hitstun nerf is pretty apparent there too. I've haven't seen it until now, but that's a big difference.
Ragnarok_F4 Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 So many tears in so little time.... If she's still viable, I'll keep using her . Idk about her matchup chart yet. Does anyone know how this is developing? I'm a bit worried about Azrael, his matchup was already kinda hard.
Teutonicknight Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Azrael is going to be hard for everyone lol. But yeah, Makoto's still the best character ever.
milesw Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Did j.B CH hitstun get nerf at all, or is it just normal hit stun? Its still the same. They fall all the way to their death lol
Angry Guy of DE Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I'm a bit worried about Azrael, his matchup was already kinda hard. Makoto can parry 5B > B follow-up and 5B > 2C string. That may not seem like much but you can at least stop Azrael's that do nothing but flowchart pressure with that.
Teutonicknight Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Its still the same. They fall all the way to their death lol It's like the kick knocks them unconscious for a second or something, lol...So CH version is still good? I guess that's good. Btw, how many active hit frames does that little acorn have? I could have sworn Litchi had to block it when it actually hit the ground. Makes me wonder if it's exactly the same as UN Acorn, minus the tracking.
Chaoschao222 Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Makes me wonder if it's exactly the same as UN Acorn, minus the tracking. It's not. It does more damage, may have worse proration????, can exit the screen (which is mostly due to having a set arc), and y'know the whole 10% thing. The only real similarities it has with Victory Acorn that I've seen is that an acorn goes up and an acorn comes down.
Teutonicknight Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Even excluding the 10% activation, it sounds like a totally different (and shittier ) move. It's a shame they didn't keep it exactly like the unlimited one, because that's the best attack in the game. Not in terms of practicality either.
milesw Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 It's not. It does more damage, may have worse proration????, can exit the screen (which is mostly due to having a set arc), and y'know the whole 10% thing. The only real similarities it has with Victory Acorn that I've seen is that an acorn goes up and an acorn comes down. It dont think it does do any damage. Lol its so sad that we're discussing acorn though. It's not meant to be used lol
Chaoschao222 Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 It dont think it does do any damage. Oh, I was told it does 100. If it's still 1 damage starter, 0 mid-combo, then it shares that with Victory Acorn.
Teutonicknight Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Lol its so sad that we're discussing acorn though. It's not meant to be used lol Yeah... Only change that's really noteworthy, and it's still negligible.
Ried Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 There's no Victory with that Acorn. It's Limited Makoto's Defeat Acorn. 10% activation. 100% sadness.
Teutonicknight Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 It's mainly the fact we lost a bunch of stuff for that disappointing move, otherwise it would be semi-okay with me. I can't tell if they are making Makoto a joke character, or just a flat-out joke. Either way, I'm not laughing. I did laugh at "Limited Makoto's Defeat Acorn" though, lol.
Master Of Chaos Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 There's no Victory with that Acorn. It's Limited Makoto's Defeat Acorn. 10% activation. 100% sadness. It's Mori telling the Makoto players to thrown in the Acorn. Trolling at it's finest. You fuck with Hazama one time in story mode and your name isn't Hakumen, this shit happens to you.
OmnixTSC Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 Just to clear up some stuff. "Max" corner damage is actually weaken by only 33 damage lol. Everything is exactly the same as 1.0 outside of the asteroid vision route combos and stuff involving j.BD or air hit 6B. Also normal PF didn't lose any damage, It's still 200/200/700. Hmm...what about for max meterless damage? The 6B routes don't lead to a higher damage output in corner combos? I thought that would be the case.
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