[CP] µ12: Gameplay Discussion

[C0R]

It doesn't help that the counter followups are blockable, which is especially a disadvantage for Hakumen because of Mu's projectiles.

Add the extra problem that voids created by slashing lasers stay only a fraction of the time compared to extend

Also this

edit:

What are these "slight restrictions" in neutral tools ?

I'm gonna guess he's referring to Mu's zoning tools being nerfed a little (Habaya much slower, more difficult to extend the travel time of 236D, etc)

It'll definitely be nice to not get sucked into counters after he parries a projectile from half a screen away lol. I didn't know that Fumajins have shorter duration either; that'll definitely be nice.

All of µ's primary pokes that allowed her to dominate neutral now have early extended hitboxes before their active points. 2b also has an additional lingering hitbox after it loses its active frames.

Hakumen has always kept up in the matchup with his dominant normals and diagonal attack trajectories, not because of counters or his specific anti-zoning mechanics. It's his buttons that make the character strong and tough to fight. In the new game, µ's buttons have seen the wear and tear of time, especially with the loss of match-converting damage off major starters, whereas his damage mean has raised. This means it's going to be tougher for µ in neutral, and tougher for Hakumen on kockdown. I would say the matchup should stay about the same.

[psycofang2]

Unlike you guys his air grab OD wins the match up entirely.

Because hes a walking glitch time bomb that cant be challenged.

But honestly i dont think the matchup has changed at all, just some of the gears in the clock got replaced, though i still feel the match ups in hakumens favor by a bit and not even.

[mAc Chaos]

how good of a tool is mu's 2c

[Zeromus_X]

It is good, but you can't just throw it out there anymore like CS2.

[pochp]

I love it for frame traps because you can easily confirm it in a more or less burst safe way.

[mAc Chaos]

What about as an anti air?

[Zeromus_X]

It's still good like I said, but you have to pre-empt it a bit due to less head invul. Since it's no longer jump-cancellable on block, it's much more of a commitment to anti-air if you don't get a CH. You have to confirm with 2C > gatling into 5C, which can actually be punished if they block the 5C. So you have to decide if 6A, airthrow, rising jA/B/C, or movement is better depending on the situation.

Everyone usually gets hit by the 5C because they forget to barrier anyway though

Edited June 18, 2013 by Zeromus_X

[pochp]

To add to that, the recovery is long, so even if you are doing it preemtively, if the opponent opts for a double jump to bait it, you are eating a punish, crouching. Definitely not as reliable as some other anti-airs, but good enough to stop people from jumping in for free.

Hm, I've never been punished for doing 2c 5c, I think. Since they need to barrier both normals, they get pushed out too far.

[mAc Chaos]

Huh, looks like there's more I can do than I thought... Tectal always uses it to great effectiveness against me. Even if I'm on the ground it can hit me and do huge damage. It also hits behind her, so my j.B crossups just get bodied. It also clashes with Hotaru.

Basically, 2C ~> all of my rage.

[bakahyl]

Perhaps you shouldn't IAD too often against Mu? 2c is easily baited by a double jump and without a CH , 2c is normally not even that good

[Zeromus_X]

But you're the Hakuman. Just scumbag jD anyone trying to anti-air you. Lol I dunno how often you and Tectal play eachother but it's worth a try.

[Tecta1Eastside]

Mac Chaos tries J.D but I dont 2C/6A every jump-in or IAD move he makes.

He still has to make a correct read when I do 2C/6A or react to it to land J.D

He whiffs j.D and gets punished.

Anti-Air Non-CH 2C is still good.

2C>jc>j.B>j.C>J.2C>66 2B etc works. Should do 3k but I cant remember the full combo.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Tecta1Eastside

[pochp]

Double jump is way safer to bait it out. There's just this range where you expect people to IAD, and if they do it, you know they can't double jump, so expect the 2c if you don't see the Mu doing something else, and don't try to beat it (well unless you want to bet on j.d).

Anti-Air Non-CH 2C is still good.

2C>jc>j.B>j.C>J.2C>66 2B etc works. Should do 3k but I cant remember the full combo.

Yeah, from close, that's probably the go to route for CSEX, something like 2c j.b j.c j.2c 2b 2c 6c habacan 6a (6b?) 5c 6c most likely. Farther away, if they aren't too high, you could do either 2c 6c habacan etc. or 2c 5c 6c habacan etc. if they're low (rest depends on how far you are from the corner, but it ends up really similar to the standard 2c CH combos). Near or in the corner I guess 2c j.c j.2c SoD/2b etc. would lead to decent damage.

[bakahyl]

A non CH 2c is harder to confirm, because the more optimal combo's don't require a jump because CH 2c 5c 6c habacan etc. or CH 2c 6a j.2c etc. are probably more common used and if they barrierblock 2c you can still gattle to 5c and then afterwards into something to make it safe.

If you did jump on a CH, then the combo afterwards needs a right spaced airdash j.c j.2c though

Edited June 18, 2013 by bakahyl

[mAc Chaos]

Do you guys have it actually punished with double jump that often?

[bakahyl]

Do you guys have it actually punished with double jump that often?

I get punished quite often if they bait my 2c with a double jump :p

edit: also 6a isn't exactly the best AA against double jumps

Sometimes i simply use a random airgrab if i suspect they are going to bait my AA though

Edited June 18, 2013 by bakahyl

[Tecta1Eastside]

I forgot to take an account the distance when you land 2C for each confirm.

I would get double jump baited alot cuz I would Yolo 2C alot when my opponent is in the air.

I stopped doing it as much though. Gotta break my bad habits.

[C0R]

In what situations are people punishing air barrier blocked 5c? The gap is only 5f until 6c hits, which isn't enough time to hit her with anything, as they'll be pushed across the screen from air barrier blocking 2c5c

[mAc Chaos]

What's the gap between air barrier blocked 2C and 5C?

I don't think anyone said 5C was getting punished though.

[bakahyl]

I don't think there is even a gap, because if you barrierblock 2c in the air it will get +3 extra frames blockstun compared to the ground.

Even on the ground and with IB i think it's gapless if you immediately gattle 2c 5c

[C0R]

What's the gap between air barrier blocked 2C and 5C?

I don't think anyone said 5C was getting punished though.

5C is 12f, there's a perfect 0 frame gap on air instant barrier.

Also the optimal combo off 2c non ch is the same as the ch one.

[DaiAndOh]

So...as far as bnb combos go, Oboro is the best?

[pochp]

So...as far as bnb combos go, Oboro is the best?

For BBCP? Check the combo videos (listed in the video thread) if you want the most optimal they've found so far. In matches you see even the better players often going for easier combos, but yeah Oboro is a good bet.

If you meant BBCSE, check the wiki.

[DaiAndOh]

For BBCP? Check the combo videos (listed in the video thread) if you want the most optimal they've found so far. In matches you see even the better players often going for easier combos, but yeah Oboro is a good bet.

If you meant BBCSE, check the wiki.

Come on Pochp, you should know me better than to post CSE discussion in a CP thread.

Yeah I've seen better players go for easier combos, but I'm sure it's just a lack of training mode opportunities.

[C0R]

Come on Pochp, you should know me better than to post CSE discussion in a CP thread.

Yeah I've seen better players go for easier combos, but I'm sure it's just a lack of training mode opportunities.

If you're looking for top players and optimal combos, those eggs aren't in the same basket when it comes to µ players in matches. They just don't go for them. Keba keeps telling me that they're "too scary".