[CP] Izayoi Gameplay Discussion - Tobe! Gandamu!

[Rhannmah]

The thing is with not doing the 236c before doing 6d is that it keeps them lower to the ground, making it harder to combo them afterwards, especially midscreen. Sometimes it even blows them backwards. Maybe the reduced pushback on 5c will make it easier to combo into 2c? Who knows. Can't wait to see it in action though. I really wonder what 3c cancellable on hit will open up. God I wish that it would be cancellable on block too.

[skd]

Oh god, sorry lol. its 236B, when going over it we put "Crusade Seraphim B" (for B button) and i just filled it out as beta.

translation reads "gedan" which most closely corresponds with low, so they are probably talking about 236B.

[hakimiru]

Just wanted to add a few nuances that weren't captured in the translation that was posted here:

BIG changes.

1. The way it's written, it sounds like you can adjust GA dash trajectory with direction inputs for both ground/air versions.

2. GA air/ground dashes now accelerate. (Not sure what this entails exactly).

3. The stagger hurtbox was located slightly behind the contact box (where your character stops if you're running at them, I'm guessing), so the positioning of it was adjusted.

4. 5B - Hurtbox size at the tip reduced, hitbox buff.

5. 6B - You now have to hold this for the full duration for the feint version to come out.

6. Ground D Sonic Saber can be canceled into air mirage thruster (I'm guessing you get to choose high or low).

7. I'm pretty sure the P2 89% → 79% Crusade Seraphim change is to Gamma (236B). Beta is still fine.

Edit: Too slow on #7, was already covered ^ :v

Either way, no need to worry about working around it now.

Edited March 12, 2014 by hakimiru

[Angel-tastic]

So wait, since the D Sonic Saber start-up is reduced, doesn't that mean the opponent can't jump over it anymore if you use it after 5C?, and it's not like you can mash out of that or backdash it either, especially with universal backdash nerfs. It seems like it ought to be a legit guaranteed pressure reset against most characters now unless I'm missing something. That's totally worth 2 stocks if it's as good now as I think it is. Also, even though it's less + on block now, I feel like the GA airdash having more acceleration and being controllable could let us dash into lows somehow, maybe something like 236D - 963 - 2B would work. That would be so awesome if that were possible.

So anyway, I'm sure the combination of reduced 5C knockback and 3C being cancelable is going to open up a bunch of new combo paths. 3C moves you closer again like 6C, but keeps the opponent close to the ground where you can keep comboing them. Maybe now we can do stuff like 3C - 5C - 2C(1) - CS Beta/Gamma - etc. I feel like that should let us get 5C - 2C(1) into places it doesn't quite work now, so I'm really excited to experiment with it.

I'm glad they fixed the 5B hurtbox. It's kind of a nuisance when you try to counter something with it and then YOU get countered.

6A and 6B buffs seem really significant for defence as well. Between the two of them, it looks like they'll beat almost everything without invulnerability, so you just have to figure out whether you need to counter a low or not.

One thing I'm not sure about is what difference Trans-Am being twice as long really makes. Doesn't the combo clock run out after 4 Trans-Am hits anyway for typical combos?

Edit: Grammar

Edited March 12, 2014 by Angel-tastic

[Celerity]

One thing I'm not sure about is what difference Trans-Am being twice as long really makes. Doesn't the combo clock run out after 4 Trans-Am hits anyway for typical combos?

Pretty much. Most of the time, it runs out right before the combo is over, so if it's twice as long, that means you'll probably get one more hit in + have it remain active for pressure afterwards. There's also the fact that with reduced startup on 236D, there might be some new ways to combo into it to open up reset opportunities, although you're talking about 6 stars to even set that up.

I'm mostly curious about how this is going to be affected by OD. Right now, Trans-Am lasts for ~4 hits while OD Trans-Am lasts for ~8, so what will it be after the change? Will both versions now be the same, or will we see the OD duration pumped up to insane levels?

[crimsonstardust]

I'm not really familiar with trans am combos, is there a pratical way for Izayoi to switch back to normal mid combo and keep it going, I would imagine if you can get the 4 stocks back effectively it might not be that bad to use for this update.

[skd]

Pretty much. Most of the time, it runs out right before the combo is over, so if it's twice as long, that means you'll probably get one more hit in + have it remain active for pressure afterwards. There's also the fact that with reduced startup on 236D, there might be some new ways to combo into it to open up reset opportunities, although you're talking about 6 stars to even set that up.

I'm mostly curious about how this is going to be affected by OD. Right now, Trans-Am lasts for ~4 hits while OD Trans-Am lasts for ~8, so what will it be after the change? Will both versions now be the same, or will we see the OD duration pumped up to insane levels?

OD affected trans-am only while active, so how long it is depends on how long your OD is (aka starting it during OD changed nothing once your OD ran out) so thats a thing to consider!

Also, with 20f startup, 5C 2C(1) 236D should combo. woo! more toys.

[Surf]

Ground D Sonic Saber - Fast, but less frame adv. Total duration from 43f to 51f, but startup down from 26f to 20f. Static difference on block point blank is down from +28 to +19. Cancelable into mirage thruster.

Well shit. There goes my corner oki.

Thank god Trans Am got buffed

[Tari]

I'm pretty late here, but does anyone know if GA 3C can be cancelled into 5D with the upcoming arcade patch? Unless I misread, it doesn't look like the old GA->Normal mode change combo will work anymore with the changes to D Sonic Sabre, so I'm curious if we just don't have any route for that anymore or if they introduced a new route, instead.

edit: and I just realized I missed a page in this thread somehow, whoops. I see that the point was already brought up.

[Angel-tastic]

Well, I'm sure CS Gamma -> Rapid~5D will still work, so we can do that at least.

I don't really blame the devs for that change though, since they probably don't want there to be a meter-less way to get stocks back in Gain Art Mode (although I think the D Sonic Saber combo was Challenge Mode #28 though, so maybe not).

[Celerity]

If you can cancel swords into 214D immediately after startup, it will actually give you more time to follow up than before. On top of the fact that j.D is slightly faster than 5D, you might be able to do something like 2C > 236D > 214D > j.D > j.B > land 623B, and it would even work midscreen. But there's no way to know for sure without seeing the new properties.

[Tari]

Ah, I see. I misread the translation and thought it said ground D saber cancelled into Strike Fall. But yeah, we still need to see the actual cancel window on the ground D saber before we can determine anything. When it says "aerial version of Mirage Thruster" in the translation... does that mean we teleport as if we started in the air, or does it mean we teleport into the air? :/ Not quite sure I understand why it would involve being in the air either way, but it's a bit unclear.

Here's to waiting for the patch to hit and vids to roll out.

[Celerity]

Well, like SKD said, the recovery for Sabre is apparently airborne (you can see her feet barely not touching the ground). I don't know whether the teleport will actually put you in the air against a standing opponent or what, but that would probably be good for mixups. Otherwise there's not enough time to make a hoverdash safe.

[Tari]

Well, like SKD said, the recovery for Sabre is apparently airborne (you can see her feet barely not touching the ground). I don't know whether the teleport will actually put you in the air against a standing opponent or what, but that would probably be good for mixups. Otherwise there's not enough time to make a hoverdash safe.

Never noticed that, haha. Makes sense, then.

[Angel-tastic]

Well, like SKD said, the recovery for Sabre is apparently airborne ...

It is. This hardly ever matters since you can't cancel it into anything and it's really hard to punish, but if you use it at a silly time and get hit by a projectile or something, you'll fall over and have to tech just like if you got hit in the air.

I'm not really sure what "Aerial Mirage Thruster" is referring to, but I'm assuming that would just be 214D, since that's the only one you can use in the air.

If so, 214D teleports you onto the ground so long as the opponent is on the ground too (or even like a meter or so into the air), so I wouldn't expect it to start teleporting us into the air.

I'm sure it would've been mentioned specifically if Izayoi had a new Mirage Thruster.

Also, j.236D - 214D - 5D doesn't work right now by a rather large margin, and j.236D is cancelable pretty early, so I'm skeptical about 236D - 214D - 5D as well, but we'll see.

[skd]

If you can cancel swords into 214D immediately after startup, it will actually give you more time to follow up than before. On top of the fact that j.D is slightly faster than 5D, you might be able to do something like 2C > 236D > 214D > j.D > j.B > land 623B, and it would even work midscreen. But there's no way to know for sure without seeing the new properties.

to be specific, jD is 1f longer than 5D but you can actually cancel the later frames of it by doing it really close to the ground. As such, there are some standing hit trans-am modechange combos. Also, im fairly certain with some hitbox manipulation you can get j236D~214D CT 5D 2A etc to work (and CT is 30f startup, meaning 5D/2D 5A should work as well), but its very specific. you have to get the swords from D saber to hit certain frames apart, (so, obviously char spec and spacing etc) i dont actually...remember what kind of hit was required to get it to combo, but its on relius in the corner if that means anything. sadly the teleport itself messes with some of the hits so you might end up losing a bit of frame adv meaning some combos dont work?

 

the cancelable state on D teleport recovery starts about...i want to say 3f slower than A teleport?

[Ichipoo]

A few days ago, I just had a Terumi wakeup super me out of my mode change j.C Oki, isn't that a safejump? Anyway I'll just chalk this up to me performing the j.C late. Also what do I do about those who like to "roll late?" Should I delay my j.C a bit in order to catch them?

[Tari]

A few days ago, I just had a Terumi wakeup super me out of my mode change j.C Oki, isn't that a safejump? Anyway I'll just chalk this up to me performing the j.C late. Also what do I do about those who like to "roll late?" Should I delay my j.C a bit in order to catch them?

 

Did he do his counter super? Safe jumps will lose to frame 1 counters by the nature of how they work.

[Ichipoo]

I don't remember what super it was but my friend did tell me it was invul from the first frame. Guess this is just me not fully understanding the way safejumps work, Terumi's moves, etc. in general.

[crimsonstardust]

I don't remember what super it was but my friend did tell me it was invul from the first frame. Guess this is just me not fully understanding the way safejumps work, Terumi's moves, etc. in general.

Do you know what the move looked like at least? Cause if its the double flash kick looking one I'm pretty sure that can be safe jumped, if it looked like he teleported and attacked from behind that's the counter super. 

[Tari]

I don't remember what super it was but my friend did tell me it was invul from the first frame. Guess this is just me not fully understanding the way safejumps work, Terumi's moves, etc. in general.

 

If you're doing a safe jump correctly, you're doing a move that has active frames right before you touch the ground, at which point you have no landing recovery and instantly change to blocking. This causes you to whiff through moves with invulnerable startup (reversals, etc.) and allows you to block their attacks after their startup has ended. It also allows you to catch opponents who try to mash on wakeup, or force opponents to block if they don't attempt anything special.

 

However, due to the fact that you're actually doing a move that has active frames on the opponent's wakeup, if they choose to do something that becomes active on frame 1 (or any frame before you touch the ground), it will be fast enough to catch you during your active frames. The only such moves that exist in this game are 1-frame counters, from what I can remember, and those counters will catch your active frames and counter you, unless the follow-up to the counter is itself slow or blockable.

 

In the case of Terumi's super counter, it will counter you out of your safe jump j.C and deal massive damage.

 

 

If you're getting hit by any other Terumi super out of your safe jump, you're likely mistiming it.

[skd]

btw after checking up on BBS, GA 3C 236B and normal mode 3C 236B do work. Normal mode 3C 236B is interesting because it gives you way more untech time since the 236B connects higher (so now you can do ~214B 2A or something like that for jump loop on farther opponents). I havent heard much about D saber, and trans-am time is indeed doubled. I forgot what else there was hah.

 

(routes look something like jC 5C 3C 236B 214A 5C 2C(1) (this doesnt work on everyone, iirc) 3C 236C~6D~214B stuff

Edited March 20, 2014 by not_lunaris

[Justice7541]

Any vids for this character yet? I wanna see the new airdash.

[crimsonstardust]

Any vids for this character yet? I wanna see the new airdash.

I don't think a single video of character changes has been released actually, would be nice cause I want to see how her air dash will be changed.

[Angel-tastic]

Yeah, Izayoi's new abilities sound really legit, so I'm super excited to see all the new stuff, especially the new Gain Art movement.

 

Also, regarding the Terumi match-up, I got wake-up Ouja Zanrouga'd today and my safe-jump got countered and then I was afraid to do oki for the rest of the match.

What am I even supposed to do about that? It's not really a big deal since most Terumi players don't use that move, but it's kind of unnerving that he can do that.

Of course I could just do 2B, but then he can do the Gouga Soutenjin that I was trying to safe-jump to begin with, but safe-jumping Terumi actually seems like a really bad idea.

Maybe if the opponent likes to do that, you could try to bait it by jumping, don't attack, and just block (which I did the second time and got a Fatal Counter his burst), which seems smart to me, but it still seems kind of tricky.

 

What kind of oki do you all use against Terumi when he has meter?