[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Kitsoru]

Or even better a new character that is Full Gear Sol

I think I would pee myself with joy

[Jackie Chandler]

I swear to god, if they gave Ky a ponytail just so it would make an X shape with Sol's when they're standing back to back...

[Zazz]

Or even better a new character that is Full Gear Sol

that sounds like a good way include Order Sol's play style without using TIME TRAVEL WHAT?!

[Surf]

His ponytail is cool. Makes him look more mature and regal in a way

[Rhannmah]

removing FRC's

They fuggin BETTER not. This is the only thing that sets guilty gear apart, and is one of the most innovative and interesting fighting game mechanic ever made. It MAKES the game.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I swear to god, if they gave Ky a ponytail just so it would make an X shape with Sol's when they're standing back to back...

Well, the song that's playing during the trailer does keep yelling "BACK TO BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!!"

Has anyone considered the possibility that the characters are fatter to compensate for the aspect ratio change? It would change the stage size and gameplay after all...

It wouldn't, actually. In GG right now the screen has to zoom-out when you get far away from each other. With 16:9 the camera would simply stay at the same magnification (thank god). All you have to do to make the stage:character size ratio the same across display ratios is to make the ratio the same across games.

i.e. let's pretend wildly that Sol's standing hitbox is always 200 units wide and the stages are always 2000 units wide (not remotely based on any real numbers). If in GG Xrd they make Sol 500 units wide then the stages simply have to be 5000 units wide.

[4r5]

RC's is what set GG apart. FRC's, and FB's, devalue RC's and Super. I wouldn't be surprised if they do a big shake-up on those two mechanics and shift a lot of power back to the 50% meter point.

Or from an execution point of view, almost all FRC's, but like 3 or 4, could be made a FB and retain all the functionality, minus the difficulty.

[TheRealBobMan]

Eh... I'd put the tension system above FRCs for "setting GG apart". Pretty much every fighting game I know besides GG does the "get meter for normals on hit or specials on hit/whiff and use it for ExMoves/Supers". If they do something different, they tend to have separate meters for it. In GG you get meter for moving forward, and the amount you get changes based on your aggressiveness and your use of instant blocking and slash backing. RCs/FRCs prorate your meter gain, but unless I'm mistaken, they raise your meter pulse. IB/SB raises your pulse and can push it past your character's pulse threshold, but running away and backdashing will cause your pulse to go down.

So the system simultaneously discourages running away without directly penalizing it, and gives players enough meter to use on all of the mechanics in the game (from FRCs to Faultless to Dead Angles).

[InWithTheAshes]

Alternatively: Rather than just remove FRC's/FB's entirely, or somehow make them less useful, they could simply increase the effectiveness or replace a lot of supers, as to make the mechanic actually worth spending on (Dragon Install and Executor X are fine candidates for this).

Edited May 21, 2013 by InWithTheAshes

[Gramas]

You mean like removing FRC's or Slashbacks? Because those were some of his ideas >:/

source?

[Chrome Homura]

Eh... I'd put the tension system above FRCs for "setting GG apart". Pretty much every fighting game I know besides GG does the "get meter for normals on hit or specials on hit/whiff and use it for ExMoves/Supers". If they do something different, they tend to have separate meters for it. In GG you get meter for moving forward, and the amount you get changes based on your aggressiveness and your use of instant blocking and slash backing. RCs/FRCs prorate your meter gain, but unless I'm mistaken, they raise your meter pulse. IB/SB raises your pulse and can push it past your character's pulse threshold, but running away and backdashing will cause your pulse to go down.

So the system simultaneously discourages running away without directly penalizing it, and gives players enough meter to use on all of the mechanics in the game (from FRCs to Faultless to Dead Angles).

^Yeah, that. I can think of plenty of games with varying cancel systems, but unless I'm mistaken, GG is literally the only FG ever made where the _amount_ of meter you get from doing things varies. The designers of KOFXIII had the foresight to prevent drive meter gain in combos after you use a DC as well as no super meter gain during HD mode... but that's literally the closest thing I can think of, and it's still quite a stretch to compare that to GG's system.

[reaVer]

You know, "having stuff to appeal to casual players" doesn't mean "Lets dumb the game down so non competitive players can enjoy it"

Just saying.

Well, part of the reason why most people are driven away from the game is exactly because there's too many options in the game to account for. And getting over that initial hump. So to appeal to casual players that would have to be removed and that means dumbing down the game.

That said, I can understand about getting rid of FRC with the condition it's replaced by a similar system. There's no point to have exact frame execution tricks because as execution of players gets better, the difficulty just becomes more trivial. So replacing it with a simpler system that is a bit more idiot proof might not just help newer player, but make the veteran players more consistent as well.

Slashbacks should stay though. When practiced properly, players are being prevented doing the same stuff over and over as they will get punished by this mechanic. It can create openings that some characters otherwise wouldn't have. It's like the 3s parry that helped balance out some of the idiotic priority on moves, but just a lot less random.

[ADS627]

Part of it appealing to casual players includes having an in depth tutorial mode for the game also like BB with challenge mode and what not.

[CyberAkuma]

*blows layers of dust off account*

Well, part of the reason why most people are driven away from the game is exactly because there's too many options in the game to account for. And getting over that initial hump. So to appeal to casual players that would have to be removed and that means dumbing down the game.

I don't even think that much is necessary, here. In fact, there's basically two things I can imagine being changed around to account for a GG game being made in the current era:

1) Input timing not being as strict as before (as this will be the main thing necessary to have GGXrd play nicely with ASW's current netcode)

and

2) Adequate tutorials (judging by BB, this shouldn't an issue to implement, either)

Not everybody who may stand to pick up this game is going to have a competitive mindset, that much is true. But I would think that as long as ASW does their part to make the game fun and has most of its intricacies broken down and laid out plainly for the consumption of anyone who wants it? There shouldn't even be a "need" to compromise but so much.

[Star-Demon]

This thread is becoming much more trollable. The temptation is like a big juicy steak. Lemme try to be serious, though.

People I talk to and try to get into the game locally don't want to get involved in "the game" for several reasons.

And let's be honest - this game was widely available and easy to get for anyone with a PS2. You can take it anywhere if you had a slim and two pads. So why was GG dead?

After trying hard to get people to play with me and others, I've concluded that - in some ways - the game and community make this mixture that tells a lot of people "Sorry, you'll be much better off being a fraud in marvel and smash". If I want to get people into the game I have to make them feel they absolutely have a place to be who they are with the level they are at, and that kinda sucks for me and them, but it gets butts in the seats next to me. I cannot get anyone to go with me or try to play where I want to play, though. The moment I mention it for GG, and not really BB or Persona - the mood gets negative.

Some of you guys will undoubtedly write these guys off, and in recent conversations some of you already have prematurely expelled them from the community. Why? What is the problem?

It's not just a problem with GG, but the whole of Anime - I see it as a big problem, but GG has it the worst, IMO. We should take +R and Xrd to be a big chance for the community and game. There's so many people we can get into this and want to get into this but they need proper guidance and sense of belonging.

I don't think it has to do with the mechanics as much as the use of them. If anything - I'd say take a serious look at Slashback. FRCs are not a big deal, but they aren't created equal for sure. Input polling in game engine should also be looked at.

The move list needs to list all the moves and label them clearly. The game needs tutorials that work well and challenges that provide practical insight into the character's moves.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Star-Demon

[ADS627]

If I want to get people into the game I have to make them feel they absolutely have a place to be who they are with the level they are at, and that kinda sucks for me and them, but it gets butts in the seats next to me.

From my table top gaming experiences, this is true. Best way to lose new players was letting some asshat who just wanted to win play a newbie. Difference between that and fighting games is that the ass kicking is usually like a half hour to an hour long process, whereas one match is about 5 minutes.

[mAc Chaos]

That kind of thing with the community is an issue with pretty much every fighting game though.

[00Bubbles00]

I think this game will do well. Graphics sell! Only a SF5 release could sideline it. With 3D models, they can even add Havok giggle physics!

I think Ky's ponytail was a good way to make him more unique and not too similar to Jin and a certain "Tales" character.

[Digital Watches]

It's possible to be competitive without being a dick. Plenty of scenes have strong players and weak players who play each other and enjoy themselves. It's a matter of having some damn social skills and making the social environment inviting even for the people who aren't going to win a lot. There are a lot of game mechanics in GG and other games that are needlessly difficult, sure, but people still play and enjoy games they're not immediately good at. Trying to shift the blame for people becoming disinterested to the game mechanics makes both worse scenes and worse games.

[Rhannmah]

The game needs tutorials that work well and challenges that provide practical insight into the character's moves

I'd go well beyond that and say that any fighting game nowadays NEED to have in-depth tutorials about its game mechanics; in the case of guilty gear, that's ranging from defensive moves to rc's and frc's to impossible dusts to fastfall to jump install. It all needs to be in there if people are to be pulled into the game. Arc Sys really needs to get off of this arcade game mentality, because outside of japan, it doesn't work.

[Celerity]

I've found people to be way more helpful and more tolerant of various skill levels in the anime FGC, compared to the Capcom community (and don't even get me started on other games, like DotA and TF2). Part of the reason is because we're probably older/more mature on average, and part of the reason is because we probably care more about getting people into the scene. I do agree that there is a PERCEIVED risk of coming in and getting laughed at for being new, but there's nothing we as a community can do about that perception besides dispelling it through our actions.

[Hecatom]

source?

Elvenshadow

Well, part of the reason why most people are driven away from the game is exactly because there's too many options in the game to account for. And getting over that initial hump. So to appeal to casual players that would have to be removed and that means dumbing down the game.

That said, I can understand about getting rid of FRC with the condition it's replaced by a similar system. There's no point to have exact frame execution tricks because as execution of players gets better, the difficulty just becomes more trivial. So replacing it with a simpler system that is a bit more idiot proof might not just help newer player, but make the veteran players more consistent as well.

Slashbacks should stay though. When practiced properly, players are being prevented doing the same stuff over and over as they will get punished by this mechanic. It can create openings that some characters otherwise wouldn't have. It's like the 3s parry that helped balance out some of the idiotic priority on moves, but just a lot less random.

Dumbing down or taking out options doesn't assure that it will appeal to them and more importantly it can hurt the reception of the current fan base.

You want to appeal to them? Make a fun game, make a game that teach them how to play the game.

Also, there are enough options on the market that are simple enough, not every game needs to treat the players as retards and/or idiots, just make sure that they can learn how to play it, also give them alternatives of playstyles and modes, like the heros and heralds, give them stuff to do, you can always have the regular way to play for the serious players, but give the more casual crowd something like a semi rpg style of game, where they can max stats and compete online with ther custom characters.

Hell, now that is 3d they could add something like the scramble mode of GG Isuka and expand it as an online mode too.

They can also give online training mode, where people can have rooms for players, so you can have people teaching others how to play in a one to one setting.

There are better ways to try to attract the mythical casual gamer

Also, the difficulty on the FRC doesn't comes for them trying to make a difficult mechanic to master, but the whole concept of the mechanic. You are cancelling the moves between frames could it be startup, active or recovery frames, this actually limits the amount of frames that you can give of window to cancel them

For example if they want you to use a frc for mixup purpose, they could put it on the startup frames just before the attack becomes active so your opponent wouldnt be on hit/blockstun so you can throw them, also remember that on GG your character keeps the momentum of the move, so it could be possible that cancelling the moves some frames later could change the outcome. Not to mention that they still need to balance the risk reward ratio, and making some stuff difficult to achive is more than just adding arbitrary difficulty.

SpiritJuice had a good idea on how t make it easier without changing the whole mehcanic, give a 5 frame input buffer a la BB and your 1 fram frcs become 6 frames frcs.

Perhaps make some FRC's Forcebreaks, who knows, but not remove the mechanic entirely.

That kind of thing with the community is an issue with pretty much every fighting game though.

True, saying that this is an issue only of the GG or Air dashes games is plain dumb

[Narroo]

I'd go well beyond that and say that any fighting game nowadays NEED to have in-depth tutorials about its game mechanics; in the case of guilty gear, that's ranging from defensive moves to rc's and frc's to impossible dusts to fastfall to jump install. It all needs to be in there if people are to be pulled into the game. Arc Sys really needs to get off of this arcade game mentality, because outside of japan, it doesn't work.

I remember renting some GG game in elementary school. Or was it 6th grade? Eitherway, I played it through with Sol and what not via button mashing and not knowing what I was doing. It wasn't till high school or college that I figured out how fighting games are meant to be played, and that's only because I found out about the FGC and had a friend who was into FGs.

So, having a tutorial that explains how you play the game would be a good idea I'd say.

[mAc Chaos]

I've found people to be way more helpful and more tolerant of various skill levels in the anime FGC, compared to the Capcom community (and don't even get me started on other games, like DotA and TF2). Part of the reason is because we're probably older/more mature on average, and part of the reason is because we probably care more about getting people into the scene. I do agree that there is a PERCEIVED risk of coming in and getting laughed at for being new, but there's nothing we as a community can do about that perception besides dispelling it through our actions.

This is true. Everything I've seen of the SF community makes it seem like they basically congratulate being a dick.

I mean, that kind of salty trash talk is actually fun if you are into it. It reminds me of Gears of War or the good old days of Halo 2. But that is not going to get casual players interested probably.

[Hecatom]

You can blame the cultural differences between us who grew with arcades, and those that only game with consoles