[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Hecatom]

Why make a character stand out as a "high execution" character when they can stand out as a "great mix-up" or "cool mindgame" character

Because

A) There are people who like to play this kind of characters, a good game has different options for different players

B) Execution is a valid way to balance how powerful is a character. (Ino and Slayer are powerful characters that are balanced through their execution requeriments)

C) Variety of strategy and gameplay

D) High Execution Requeriments also can be the result of how the players use the characters, look at Sentinel on MVC2.

TOON SHADING IS HELLA COOL LOOKING. ALSO I LIKE THE DUST ANIMATIONS.

THIS ARE THE ONLY THING THAT I DON'T LIKE

[Amadeus46Art]

ASW please confirm DLC costumes for characters so I can spend all my money on playing dress up in my anime fighting games please and thank you

[SoWL]

So, if they've been developing this for five years now, I guess it makes a PS4 version slightly less likely?

[Hecatom]

A bad execution barrier is making 1-frame button windows to make basic moves or specials arbitrarily hard, such as FRC. There's no reason for it. It's doesn't really affect gameplay other than: "Can this guy do a FRC?" And as someone pointed out, making a move balanced because few people can do it is not real balance.

FRC are not a bad execution barrier, they are deliberately done that way because the powerful options that they bring to the table, think of them as the tool that the developers give you to break the rules that were already strablished (startup and recovery frames).

Also, it was already explained why some of those windows are quite narrow, in order to increase them you have 3 options

Change the frames of the move to wide the window, which can fuck the move.

Chage the window which will make the outcome be less predictable.

Add an input buffer ala Blazblue (which i think is reasonable).

Make them Forcebreaks (but they wouldn't be roman cancels now)

For example, in an hypothetical move that has 6 frames of startup, lets say that the the first 2 the character is on the ground, the next 2 become airbone and the last 2 he gains forward momentum.

Depending on what you want to let the player do with the frc, you have little space to assing the frc window.

If you want the character to be able to stay on the ground and do a throw mixup you can only make the window within the first 2 frames.

If you make the window the first 3 frames you end with a frc that has the possibility of not working as intended if the player hits it in the last frame, sure it gains a high low mixup, but it screws the relayability if he wasn't prepared or wasnt what he was looking for.

The same happens if you want to make the frc on the middle 2 frames to give an air mixup to the player, make it the first 3 and if he lands it on the 1st 2 he will be on the ground, make it from frame 2 to frame 4 and there is still 1 frame of chance of landing it on 1 frame where he is still on the ground.

Lets say for the sake of the example that the momentum gained puts the character on a position where his air normals whiff if the opponent is crouching, so if you make it the frc from frame 3 to 5 or the last 3 and you have a frc window where the player will end fucking up if he doesn't land it between frames 3 and 4 anyway, so now you have a frc window that is lenient but puts the player in a bad situation if he is still not precise anyway.

People need to understand better how the FRC works and why it works like that before criticizing them imo.

Just because you don't like them, it doesn't mean that they are bad.

[Afrikaan]

CT Arakune is a well balanced character.

Fuck you, this made me laugh out loud in class :P.

On other topic, you guys think this is FINALLY the game where a mainline GG gets an American dub? I'd be greatly dissapointed if it didn't considering ArcSys' presence is so much bigger now in the west than it was in the early 2000s.

[Xtra_Zero]

http://i.imgur.com/Ydj6jNX.jpg

[Xtra_Zero]

Anyone want to take a crack at figuring out the lyrics to Heavy Day? Or is that something best done in another thread? lol

[SolxBaiken]

Probably the OST thread, don't want the DustCops on your back~

[Kitsoru]

So, Ky's ankles are looking extremely flimsy. Also, not only does his sword seem shorter, but with the way he animates, it looks like his range is significantly nerfed. j.S is that crescent looking swing right? Doesn't it seem to have way less range?

Someone posted a comparison earlier, but basically there's no change really other than a slight change in actual body positioning- his sword, etc. are the same length, it's just that his non-sword-arm is now extended toward the tip of the blade, rather than pulled in as it used to be. His shoulderpads are also way bigger now, giving the effect that his top half is larger, but it's just clothes really.

...I guess when you look that pretty and sport a ponytail, you need some kind of manly-man presence

honestly, it's really hard to make GG a hit among most crowds here in the west because of its anime-esque appearance and no notable characters that people can instantly recognize.

I honestly don't think the look has much to do with keeping players out; if anything that's what draws a lot of casuals in. It's the learning curve to get to high level play. Guilty Gear is easy enough to pick up, but it's a very hard learning curve to get to the point of competitive play. Especially when you don't have available people of varying levels of experience to play against. I actually think the online play system tutorial Suzaku suggested is a really good idea, but it might be too complex to make work in reality.

[Hecatom]

The funny thing is that more "accesible" games with less step learning curve still have not a lot of numbers of top players, even among their larger number of players, only a really little amount of them are playing at what we call high level play.

[Klein]

Not to mention, the execution barrier of GG honestly sounds way worse than it is. My execution is below average at best, and I can make do with it and take wins, or come close against great players.

[Pestilence]

guess i should of said it's what makes it satisfying for me to play.

complexity is fine, i doubt the core mechanics from GG will drastically change (atleast guessing from what i could see from the trailer)

but anytime i talk to a friend who is a fighting game enthusiast i usually attempt to do the GG conversion. but difficulty is a barrier i can't help people with

because they just outright usually refuse to delve into the game, and honestly i can't blame them. putting 1-2 years into a game to start getting decent at the game without outside help is a bit steep

especially with my friends who can't get over the concept that without similar training they won't have a chance in hell in beating me. i try my best to go easy, but in guilty gear going easy is akin to just making silly mistakes.

it's pretty noticeable and when they do figure out im throwing they get even more turned off etc

It's like this. The creator of GG Diashakawordicant Spell Ianotherwordicantspellta said himself, that what separates guilty gear from the rest is that in guilty gear u will eventually come to a wall and either give up or find a way to climb over it. GG has insanely high levels of execution as well as the need to understand the mechanics (both intentional and not). This is what makes the game enjoyable and dare I say satisfying to play.

For I-No's HCL FRC Airdash

I utilize:

The customizable input system (360 vs 632146 required for the input)

Negatice Edge (I press and slightly hold K only once for both the Kick and Chemical Love inputs)

Force Roman Cancel (let's not mention that this is a 2 frame FRC window)

Dash Buffer (6FRC6)

Jump Install

and all this is for a 2 hit setup.

To me, BlazBlue has always been a Guilty Gear for people who suck at Guilty Gear. If Arc were to dumb down the game to appeal to newbies I'd imagine it would be just like BlazBlue, and just like BlazBlue, SF4, or any of the fighting games this generation to be honest. I would quit playing it.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Pestilence

[Hecatom]

Not to mention, the execution barrier of GG honestly sounds way worse than it is. My execution is below average at best, and I can make do with it and take wins, or come close against great players.

This 100000 times, i have to say that i am fucking sick seeing how many "GG players" keep spreading this missinformation over and over, no wonder why many people gets scared to even try the game, if everyone keep saying that is hard to get into or that is very complex.

True, the game has a lot of stuff to learn about, and it actually has some stuff that will require time to learn, but is not as hard and not as difficult as many people claim, this kind of shit only serves to decrease the interest of people on the game.

[Dark Ranger88]

How will this new 3D affect my netplay though???

[destruction_adv]

Not to mention, the execution barrier of GG honestly sounds way worse than it is. My execution is below average at best, and I can make do with it and take wins, or come close against great players.

I agree with this, I was surprised by how quickly I began to pick up GG once I started in the training room.

[Digital Watches]

How will this new 3D affect my netplay though???

If anything graphical is going over the wire for actual play, they're doing netcode wrong

[reaVer]

This 100000 times, i have to say that i am fucking sick seeing how many "GG players" keep spreading this missinformation over and over, no wonder why many people gets scared to even try the game, if everyone keep saying that is hard to get into or that is very complex.

True, the game has a lot of stuff to learn about, and it actually has some stuff that will require time to learn, but is not as hard and not as difficult as many people claim, this kind of shit only serves to decrease the interest of people on the game.

No, lets be perfectly accurate about this: GG is extremely complex. It's unfair to say it isn't. BUT, while the initial difficulty(the initial barrier) is coming from execution(learning FRCs and stuff), the complexity of coming from the vast amount of options players have at their disposal. Even characters that have nothing are running around with some extremely powerful tools that allow them to be effective. This is not something you can ignore. And as experience grows, the execution barrier eventually completely dissappears. Which in turn implies that difficult to execute is only there to frustrate newer players. I mean, just go watch Japanese matchvids and see how often they miss their FRCs, heck even the 1 frame IAD combos are being done almost flawless these days; execution is not a valid tool to impose complexity on a game. So having FRCs replaced by an easier mechanic is just as effective as far as complexity goes, yet is far easier for people to get into.

[reaVer]

If anything graphical is going over the wire for actual play, they're doing netcode wrong

*shakes head*

VERY WRONG

[Hecatom]

missing the point

Complexity =/= hard. Which is my complaint.

What makes Guilty Gear complex is the array of options that it gives to the player, but outside stuff like FRC's and Slashbacks everything is actually easy to learn.

Also, read my example of why FRC are "hard", if anything only a very few of them are actually hard, the rest of them are very doable.

One more thing, like it or not, execution is a valid way to balance risk reward ratio.

I sincerely hate this shit mentallity where everyone thinks that they should to be able to pull out the high level play stuff without requiring practice. It is called high level play for a reason, this are people that are able to use the tools of their characters to its peak, people who practice to make everything they do consistently. There is a limit of how much you can simplify everything.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Hecatom

[Destin]

One the execution issue (which is stand very mildly on keeping things as they were), I remember when SF4 came out. I was fairly impressed with some of the changes they were making to attempt to make it more user friendly while keeping the core of SF there. One specific thing that stood out as being good was the increased reversal buffer. It's fucking huge, if you want to wake up dp, you will wakeup dp. This is the opposite of SF2, where you BETTER be able to reversal dp, and it wasn't that lenient (thank god for pianos).

Now, in my lack of wisdom, I failed to see a very large negative that arose. The wakeup game I felt (and to some degree still feel, although that has cooled a bit) should be fairly easy to reversal dp. It's an important option, and it has it's risks and rewards. Now, tacked onto this, was the buffer out of blockstun/hitstun. Reversals out of blockstun also got the window, and allowed you to just mash dp's to your hearts desire. While theoretically, hey, you could just bait the dp's right, the risk/reward of the game didn't really follow suit. The game became a system where people were afraid to do blockstrings of any meaningful length, combos were shortened because if you mess up your own combo, you lose 70% health! Most importantly, the whole game Sloooooooowed to a crawl. In the old days, people would learn exactly the point at which strings had holes, where they could move, where a combo might be most likely dropped. Those dp's did little to hurt the flow of the game, and were quite impressive. No longer though...

Furthermore, the throw break window went to fairly large (something like 4-6 frames?). While the logic seemed sound, help combat lag and let people break throws even if they had poor timing, what it ended up doing was letting a good execution player like myself do the throw breaks juuuuust at the last frame. Then in order to frame trap me, you had to leave GIANT windows to catch my option select low. Unintended results like these can do a lot to damage a game. Execution reduction can help, but it has to be done very intelligently.

I wrote another little blurb that got eaten, but I'll try to sum it up. With execution, most developers seem to be moving towards making the heart of the game accessible at mid levels of execution, but give some rewards for increasingly difficult execution. Give ky his Big fireball frc with a large frame window, but maybe keep chipp's command throw frc as is. Give dizzy a buffer on her icespike (mayyyyybe), but keep her 2 frame window on her super frc. Having some sort of execution barrier helps create diversity in player combos as well. How well are you willing to work on your execution and how much risk you are willing to take to do a great combo should factor into your rewards. Even to Reavers point, though the japanese don't mess up their combos, some of them do go for much more difficult ones, much more often.

[Gespenst Ritter]

I sincerely hate this shit mentallity where everyone thinks that they should to be able to pull out the high level play stuff without requiring practice.

That's a strawman argument and you know it. Literally no one has said this here.

[Digital Watches]

One more thing, like it or not, execution is a valid way to balance risk reward ratio.

That's a completely ridiculous assertion. If you think that the amount of practice required to do a thing is entering into the risk-reward decisions of anyone playing at a high competitive level, you are simply mistaken. Yeah, stuff like slashbacks that are interactive and require you to predict what's going to happen are never going to be reliable, and that's probably a good thing. But if we're talking about things that don't have side effects, like not dropping your combo, or getting your FRC, then for high-level players it is simply a non-issue. They've already practiced. They have it down. If they need to do it, they can do it. Period. Full stop. Give ASW some credit here: If they balanced their game based on stuff like that, people would not take the game seriously, because that is in no sense a valid constraint for balance.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Hecatom]

Another one missing the point

High level play is called that way for a reason, those are people who practiced to do everything consistently. This still doesn't mean that using execution as a mean to balance is wrong in any way.

That is why moves like the 360 have that move, otherwise you need to change its properties if you simplify it.

Look at Dizzy's Necro's Anger (or whatever is called), when the motion got simplified, they changed its properties to be less good than when it was more complicated.

As for the case of FRC's there is much going on beside balance from risk reward ratio, i already give an example of why is not just a matter of changing the window.

I also pointed 2 possible ways to simplify it or change the mechanic but retaining its core aspect.

Your argument is the same as asking why not making every shot 3 points instead of 2 because everyone on the nba always land the 3 points shot no matter the circunstances.

That's a strawman argument and you know it. Literally no one has said this here.

You think?

You will be surprised the amount of shit that people think should be simplified, always bringing high level play, like if what they want is to even the field of what the top playes do after practicing to do what they do and what they (the people arguing about simplifying something/everything) can't

Edited May 23, 2013 by Hecatom

[Digital Watches]

Except that it doesn't balance the game in any way. The options available to players are still there, and if they're overpowered, they're still overpowered. Making them harder for beginners to do doesn't make them less overpowered, it just makes low-level play look less like high-level play in that you will see that specific overpowered thing get used less. To cite an extreme case for the sake of making a point, let's say someone discovered that Sol has a touch of death combo that's burst-safe, resets into itself, and can be confirmed from almost anything on any character. The catch is, it involves a ton of one frame links and tough buffer tricks that require precise timing and complicated motions. Almost no one can do it right off the bat, there's just this one japanese player (at first) who can do it consistently. If he lands a hit, he pretty much wins the round. Is that reasonable? Should that stay in the game? After all, it's super hard to do. Almost no one can do it. That makes it legit, right?

Edited May 23, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Circuitous]

I think it's pretty reasonable to assert that a certain amount of balancing is reflected in their decision to give certain attacks certain commands. I doubt Potemkin Buster would still be a three-frame command throw if it had a 214 input instead of a 632146.