[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Agni]

I'm not expecting any kind of '13 release. The original trailer seems to be a REALLY alpha version of the game.

Gotta let that stuff ripen with age, like fine wine. Don't want to get it too early and it turns out to be a mess. We have R+ to tide us over.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I honestly would rather have them take their time and make a better and more complete game. I don't mind the wait. Still having fun with R. Only thing that sucks is if they don't release it before August 2014 because that's probably when I'll be moving back to the US. Then I'd have to wait to play it on console like the rest of you lol.

It's fine for you lol since you live in the other place that has +R lol >_<

But those who've been playing AC for a long time would like a new version of GG in the meantime.

Though since you live in Japan would you mind answering this question for me. It's fairly relevant to this thread. But why don't you see players in Japan/Asia play multiple games at a competitive level. Like why is it that now that Dogura plays BB he doesn't play GG or vice versa for other players like him (Goro,Suzume, Kaqn, H.H etc.). I ask this because high level western players often play multiple games at a competitive level but it's not so much the case in Japan/Asia and I would like to know why.

I'm not expecting any kind of '13 release. The original trailer seems to be a REALLY alpha version of the game.

Gotta let that stuff ripen with age, like fine wine. Don't want to get it too early and it turns out to be a mess. We have R+ to tide us over.

Yea when that game/update arrives on it's expected date of "Eventually 20XX".

[CyberAkuma]

This winter!? Seems way too soon. I'd bet on mid or late next year at least.

Well, one way I look at it is like so: Since this game is going to be on Sega's RingEdge 2, it'll be a game inevitably competing against ASW's "other game" on the Taito X2/NESiCA, no matter what.

So with that said? I don't think ASW really has to worry about giving BBCP "its space", since Xrd is looking to be the closest thing that Sega has to a "killer app" for the RingEdge 2 at the moment. And Sega will likely want the game out sooner rather than later.

[Hecatom]

I'm betting we see it in arcades this winter. Console port should be easy because Unreal, but we'll see.

Too much optimism imo, i think that we wouldn't see this game until the end of 2014 at best, i am almost sure that it wouldn't be released on arcades until 1st half of 2015 tbh.

[White Man]

Too much optimism imo, i think that we wouldn't see this game until the end of 2014 at best, i am almost sure that it wouldn't be released on arcades until 1st half of 2015 tbh.

Just a shot in the dark here, but are you a fan of games made by Blizzard and/or Valve?

[Xtra_Zero]

Idk, a long wait just doesn't sound like ASW. I don't think they would have revealed if they didn't already see the light at the end of the tunnel. They already have at least 4 models, they've already demoed a mechanics engine that is almost identical to the one we currently have, they've already settled on and mostly implemented the graphics engine, and the big man himself says that he's looking to trim the fat. Cutting stuff out doesn't take any time at all especially if he's going back to a model that was already used, and it seems so far that little things will likely be the same. I'm guessing that we'll see a #Reload-style base engine with one new, significant engine change (more significant than Slashbacks or Force Breaks). That doesn't take much time at all to plan, all that's left is (a lot of) testing, model creation, music composition, and whatever they decide to implement in terms of single-player content (which may be a lot, actually).

I'm betting loketests in October/November and release in January.

[Solid Gold Wall]

Like why is it that now that Dogura plays BB he doesn't play GG

he made it to the arc revo cup for gg

[ElvenShadow]

It's fine for you lol since you live in the other place that has +R lol >_<

But those who've been playing AC for a long time would like a new version of GG in the meantime.

Though since you live in Japan would you mind answering this question for me. It's fairly relevant to this thread. But why don't you see players in Japan/Asia play multiple games at a competitive level. Like why is it that now that Dogura plays BB he doesn't play GG or vice versa for other players like him (Goro,Suzume, Kaqn, H.H etc.). I ask this because high level western players often play multiple games at a competitive level but it's not so much the case in Japan/Asia and I would like to know why.

.

I suppose the answer is different for everyone. Some players probably DO play multiple games. The extent to which they play each game may vary though. Comp is pretty rough here. Maybe not everyone can handle competing at their best in more than one game and dont want to spread themselves too thin. Maybe some people just lose interest in one game and start preferring another. For example, Nemo used to be a top GG player and then became a top SFIV player and now he is a top Marvel player. Some people just change their taste over time. Personally I prefer to focus on GG because I just enjoy playing it the most. I will occasionally play other fighting games for fun but pretty much only enter tournaments for GG.

[j_xker]

This might sounds quite aggressive but I've seen top players in GG change to SF and other stuff and successful, not the otherway around ( Nemo and Kaqn - Daigo doesn't count here ), or Kubo, Yukinose ( Melty Blood). Maybe it's because GG is quite old and not so many new players are interested in it anymore. Anyhow, now we have a chance to see if it's right or not with Xrd.

[Volt]

I actually hope they keep Slashbacks and Force Breaks. Most FB's are awesome and SB's can be used to break dashes faster than FD's not to mention it's great against predictable or multi-hit attacks.

[Xtra_Zero]

I actually hope they keep Slashbacks and Force Breaks. Most FB's are awesome and SB's can be used to break dashes faster than FD's not to mention it's great against predictable or multi-hit attacks.

Do multi-hit attacks really need to be punished that hard if blocked? Were they a problem? Do predictable attacks need to be punished even harder than they already can be? Was punishing predictable stuff ever an issue? Imo slashback is redundant and makes optimal punishes even more of an execution contest. You never ask yourself "Is it a good strategic idea to SB this incoming move?" you ask yourself "Do I have the reflexes to SB this incoming move?" which is not good because once everyone gets those reflexes then the game turns into 3S.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Xtra_Zero

[Hecatom]

If you are making that type of questions then you are playing at a very low level, imo

The same could be said of 623, do i have the reflexes to use the 623S to any jump in?

Why everything needs to be easy mode?

There is nothing wrong on making stuff to take some kind of effort

I understand that some of you want games more "accessible" for the commoners, but common, just because some people don't like hard stuff it means that is bad.

Edit

3s is what it is for many reasons beyond the parries and how difficult or easy are they to perform

Edited May 31, 2013 by Hecatom

[TheRealBobMan]

There is a finite cap on the "reflexes" you mention. Depending on how you predict the move you want to SB, the amount of time it takes to prepare to hit the buttons varies, but you're looking at around 200ms for a basic "see stimulus - push button" reaction. So you'd need at least 12 frames of telegraph time (some moves telegraph late) to confirm the SB, unless you want to go on prediction and commit to a great risk. Reactions in which you do "A if X happens" or "B if Y happens" are slower at around 380ms, and you add about 60ms per extra 'stimuli > reaction' pairing.

Multi hit moves are great to SB because you can generally react to the early hits and SB the last one. Slow moves are great under the condition that the other player can't cancel them before startup (no meter to FRC or no FRC point).

Yeah, parry mechanics can get really dumb if they're built poorly. However, because of the psychological refractory period (if you're distracted, by something like an unexpected move, your reaction time is delayed by around 180ms), and the reaction time numbers I mentioned above, a strong mixup game will prevent players from ever having the capability of using SB on reaction to everything (assuming the start up time for moves and telegraphs are built well, which they seem to be in this game). Even with proper training for such a thing, you can condition opponents to expose themselves to risk, and with GG, you always have 2 mechanics that enable you to punish SB attempts: gatling windows during active frames (gatling late but still having a safe amount of block stun to throw off timing/rhythm) and RC/FRC.

I started trying to SB Bandit Bringer on reaction every time because there's enough time to react to it, so my friend started doing RC > mixup off of it. If a player catches a Chipp's timing and starts to SB his block strings of c.S > 6P > c.S (damn amazing), Chipp can just gatling his 6P late or not cancel into c.S again until after the second hit of 6P, or could switch to c.S > recover > c.S. Then, if you get into character specifics, Pot can cancel into Pot Buster if he predicts a SB and reacts to it happening (you're not in block stun so no restriction), just as a player can predict his 2S and try to SB it.

I don't really play 3S so correct me if I'm wrong, but because of the linking nature of the game, there isn't the same wiggle room to bait a parry attempt. This is also probably an issue because of the large parry window, but they were smart about that and did the red-parry thing which has the same 2frame window as SB, which if I understand correctly, triggers when you try to parry out of block stun? Not the most elegant solution but it keeps the game from becoming degenerate.

Also, the difference in block stun between FD and IB is important, and often leaves me thinking of whether one or the other is better for the situation. Even with just 2 frames of stun when successfully SBing, not all characters can actually do anything with their advantage if the other guy is mid block string. If Sol gatlings 5K[1] > c.S and I SB the 5K, I can't do anything with the 3 frame window as an I-No player unless I have meter to go into Desperation. Not only would that mean I'd have to buffer the SB as 63214[s+H]6]H[ to do it, which would be balls hard and commit to an input that could be punished by an overhead or a tick-throw on prediction, but Sol could just do 5K[2] and buffer 214 for GV, hitting S on reaction to the super flash, or K for Riot Stomp if he wants to troll me doing pretty much anything out of the SB (and he could FRC the Riot Stomp to be safe even if I don't SB and just sit there blocking/waiting).

[Xtra_Zero]

If you are making that type of questions then you are playing at a very low level, imo

The same could be said of 623, do i have the reflexes to use the 623S to any jump in?

Why everything needs to be easy mode?

There is nothing wrong on making stuff to take some kind of effort

I understand that some of you want games more "accessible" for the commoners, but common, just because some people don't like hard stuff it means that is bad.

Edit

3s is what it is for many reasons beyond the parries and how difficult or easy are they to perform

I'm not saying hard stuff is bad, I'm saying hard stuff with no strategic value is bad. If you end up being able to SB all multi-hit moves, then multi-hit moves just won't be used on block anymore in those situations. It neutralizes a part of the offensive game not by requiring strategy to use certain moves, but just by making them deprecated on block. The game hasn't quite hit that level yet, but the players who can already SB reliably have a huge advantage over those that cannot. Probably an even bigger advantage than FRCs.

3S was a bit of an extreme comparison, yes.

You are seeing all of this on a vacuum, how many years have been since GGAC was released?

Did the slashback neutered the multi hit moves?

And lol at SB being hard with not strategic value, do you even understand why they are hard, or you just feel that because they are hard, they don't have strategic value? Common son, the strategic value is there, there is a clear risk reward ratio between SB, IB and FD and how those can be used in different ways by every different character.

Dunno man, but i feel that you are making a fuss about stuff that 1) you don't understand well, 2) stuff that is not as bad as you think

1st you throw say that hard stuff is bad, but you later edit it and throw 3s as an example, when all the "problems" with 3s are more than just, lol this game has parries.

Now you try to extrapolate what you think that SB do against multi hit moves and what you think it will do in the future despite the game being out for years and nothing of this happening, do you see every multi hit attack being SB'ed consistently at high level play? and no, we are not seeing them so much because they are hard neither.

I'm not talking about 3S having problems. I'm talking about SB changing the game toward 3S. I like 3S but I also like GG, and what I'm saying is that SB is an unnecessary addition that removes some good offensive options. As TRBM pointed out, it also creates some. As for seeing things in a vacuum, yes, I am applying those arguments. It started slow in 3S too. I don't think it's completely invalid to compare this way.

It's pretty hard to argue back against your other strawman arguments, though.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Xtra_Zero

[Hecatom]

I'm not saying hard stuff is bad, I'm saying hard stuff with no strategic value is bad. If you end up being able to SB all multi-hit moves, then multi-hit moves just won't be used on block anymore in those situations. It neutralizes a part of the offensive game not by requiring strategy to use certain moves, but just by making them deprecated on block. The game hasn't quite hit that level yet, but the players who can already SB reliably have a huge advantage over those that cannot. Probably an even bigger advantage than FRCs.

3S was a bit of an extreme comparison, yes.

You are seeing all of this on a vacuum, how many years have been since GGAC was released?

Did the slashback neutered the multi hit moves?

And lol at SB being hard with not strategic value, do you even understand why they are hard, or you just feel that because they are hard, they don't have strategic value? Common son, the strategic value is there, there is a clear risk reward ratio between SB, IB and FD and how those can be used in different ways by every different character.

Dunno man, but i feel that you are making a fuss about stuff that 1) you don't understand well, 2) stuff that is not as bad as you think

1st you throw say that hard stuff is bad, but you later edit it and throw 3s as an example instead, when all the "problems" with 3s are more than just, lol this game has parries.

Now you try to extrapolate what you think that SB do against multi hit moves and what you think it will do in the future despite the game being out for years and nothing of this happening, do you see every multi hit attack being SB'ed consistently at high level play? and no, we are not seeing them so much because they are hard neither, TheRealBobMan made a good post about different scenarios on how SB can be used and countered, dunno you man but for me is a proof of the strategic value and the mindgames that this mechanic brings to the table without devolving on silly stuff, guess why, because the mechanic has been implemented in a way where the risk reward ratio doesn't fuck up all the other options present in the game.

Edit

IIRC slashbacks need like 2 or 3 frames, which are around the same amount of time required for instant blocking

Edited May 31, 2013 by Hecatom

[Circuitous]

Instant Block is closer to 8 frames, at least 4 times the size of the SB window. Might as well make sure you're accurate.

As for Slashback, regardless of your opinion on it, it exists now. Whether or not it exists in Xrd is to be decided, but not by us. Since it's apparently impossible for two people to come to a shared conclusion on this board, I'm going to ask you all to stop arguing about this.

[stickystaines]

Sorry but can you stop dictating conversation just because you don't like it? Discussing whether old mechanics will be in the new game is the most relevant discussion this topic could ever have. If some unanimous conclusion was expected then people wouldn't talk about anything.

If they were to remove anything due to bloat it would definitely be SB. I think that whether SB is a useful/useless or good/bad mechanic wouldn't matter that much, but removing it wouldn't really change the feeling of what it is to be a Guilty Gear game. Each mechanic has a different impact on the game; gatlings, RC, FRC, SB, FB etc. I don't think anyone could imagine the game being Guilty Gear without gatling's and FRC's, but i think people could do away with SB's without too much effort, despite their usefulness in certain situations. Force break's have become quite substantial to the average play in GG, but i still think there is a possibility for them to remove it or heavily change it.

I actually think impossible dusts have a better chance of staying in than SB. Ha. Probably not if the dust cinematic stays the way it is.

[Star-Demon]

I think they should add more belts

and Baiken should be S Tier

and none of you should play her.

Also - Alternate costumes are definitely possible - Rigging and basic models are the things that matter, clothes are easy done, and with a professional staff working on the game instead of just modders doing that sort of thing I'm sure you'll see some really nice Capcom-like stuff come out.

I really, really, REALLY hope they add a lot of options to training mode. Limited and First are not real modes to me. Limited can't block high after low and vice versa, and First pretty much does the same thing. It doesn't help you actually learn how to deal with a blocking opponent, it tells you how to beat the stupid training dummy.

Give me Random block: Reversal (GC if char has none) , Random Block: Normal, and Random Block: Really good.

EDIT: Dude brings up a good point, Circ - what ARE we allowed to discuss in this thread?

Edited May 31, 2013 by Star-Demon

[Slaythe]

So many people have absolutely NO CLUE how the graphics of this game works.

" this is easier and cheaper ", no it's not.

First of all, you all assumed these were simple 3D models but it's not. No engine to date is able to render that kind of graphics with such a perfect control. It's rendered on PC then exported and edited in 2D, they fix potential clipping, shading, and the face ( I thought it'd be obvious when we saw ky's face on close up during his "ultimate" cinematic move).

They can't tweak models that easily as it would mean reworking all frames. This is only possible because they have scripted angles and camera zoom, so they know exactly what frames to convert in 2D.

You can see on the effects and Ky's win pose that NO 3d engine can pull this off without some cheating. It is a bit easier for them though, and I suspect vector animation on stuff like standing animations that creates that smooth effect.

The main reason for the 3D edit ( and KOF just sprites over 3D for instance ) is that they can finally pull off the 1080p resolution, the drawing style instead of pixel style guarantees that it looks awesome on ALL TVs, and it allows them to create crazy effects that became so popular with naruto/street fighter ( on the launch, somewhat of an ultimate etc... ).

They can't tweak 3D models as capcom could on SF4, it requires more work. ( Depends the tweak though )

For more info on that technique, the adventure game Broken Sword 5 use a similar one, Except they don't draw the face and they are not * as good * but it's still close.

You can see a slight loss of quality in the textures of the background and the characters when it rotates, as well as the effect being somewhat static.

Also it did seem awfully slow at first, I think the 1080p YouTube video is encoded poorly because on specific devices and nico it looks just as fast as before.

I'm really hyped for this.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Slaythe

[stickystaines]

What's special about Ky's win pose?

[Hecatom]

Instant Block is closer to 8 frames, at least 4 times the size of the SB window. Might as well make sure you're accurate.

That is why i said If i remember correctly (iirc), also, are you sure, dunno why but i feel that the number is to big from what i remember.

As for Slashback, regardless of your opinion on it, it exists now. Whether or not it exists in Xrd is to be decided, but not by us. Since it's apparently impossible for two people to come to a shared conclusion on this board, I'm going to ask you all to stop arguing about this.

Might i ask, then what we do can talk about then?

Is like we can't talk about nothing if there is not some sort of agreement here...

Plus, this kind of discussion can help people to learn more about the game mechanics and understand better how and why they work the way they do.

[STenSatsu]

The problem with a lot of discussions is that they just go back and forth with nobody conceding anything and no new arguments being brought up so it just wastes 40 pages of space burying anything interesting (like that art post just now) in a heap of shit. That may be why Circ wants to not pursue it.

As far as the look of the game goes, I wonder how much of it is specifically for the trailer. For example I'd personally hate to see that knockback effect from Ky's CH 6p or even those clash mechanics. But they also look like they were made simply to look cool for the trailer since it transitions immediately into Sol's intro.

[Hecatom]

I actually think that the 6P counter hit effect is akin to the sliding effect of some attacks (i also think that it looks cool and they should keep it)

[Circuitous]

Sorry but can you stop dictating conversation just because you don't like it? Discussing whether old mechanics will be in the new game is the most relevant discussion this topic could ever have. If some unanimous conclusion was expected then people wouldn't talk about anything.

Y'know what, let me rephrase. Feel free to discuss potential Xrd mechanics in a reasonable, constructive manner.

So things like this,

If you are making that type of questions then you are playing at a very low level, imo

this,

It's pretty hard to argue back against your other strawman arguments, though.

etc. would be better off not posted. Is that easy enough for everyone?

[Circuitous]

The problem with a lot of discussions is that they just go back and forth with nobody conceding anything and no new arguments being brought up so it just wastes 40 pages of space burying anything interesting (like that art post just now) in a heap of shit. That may be why Circ wants to not pursue it.

Ding ding ding.

I actually think that the 6P counter hit effect is akin to the sliding effect of some attacks (i also think that it looks cool and they should keep it)

Looks like a (much cooler) groundslide to me, I agree.

So many people have absolutely NO CLUE how the graphics of this game works.

" this is easier and cheaper ", no it's not.

First of all, you all assumed these were simple 3D models but it's not. No engine to date is able to render that kind of graphics with such a perfect control. It's rendered on PC then exported and edited in 2D, they fix potential clipping, shading, and the face ( I thought it'd be obvious when we saw ky's face on close up during his "ultimate" cinematic move).

They can't tweak models that easily as it would mean reworking all frames. This is only possible because they have scripted angles and camera zoom, so they know exactly what frames to convert in 2D.

You can see on the effects and Ky's win pose that NO 3d engine can pull this off without some cheating. It is a bit easier for them though, and I suspect vector animation on stuff like standing animations that creates that smooth effect.

The main reason for the 3D edit ( and KOF just sprites over 3D for instance ) is that they can finally pull off the 1080p resolution, the drawing style instead of pixel style guarantees that it looks awesome on ALL TVs, and it allows them to create crazy effects that became so popular with naruto/street fighter ( on the launch, somewhat of an ultimate etc... ).

They can't tweak 3D models as capcom could on SF4, it requires more work. ( Depends the tweak though )

For more info on that technique, the adventure game Broken Sword 5 use a similar one, Except they don't draw the face and they are not * as good * but it's still close.

You can see a slight loss of quality in the textures of the background and the characters when it rotates, as well as the effect being somewhat static.

Also it did seem awfully slow at first, I think the 1080p YouTube video is encoded poorly because on specific devices and nico it looks just as fast as before.

I'm really hyped for this.

Actually, the methods for forcing one model to appear in front of another were already explained in this thread. Bonus points: Battle Fantasia (a fully-3D ArcSys fighting game) uses the same (or a very similar) system to keep one player on top of another. It's far from new technology.

The method you're describing, rotoscoping, is exactly what they used in BlazBlue, anyway. If they were going to go the rotoscoping route and lay sprites over a 3D background, why not use the engine they've already built instead of licensing UE? If they've been working on the game/engine as long as has been claimed, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume they've found a shader combination that gives them the desired look instead of vectoring them all, though I will admit the possibility exists since they're still just using keyframes instead of tweens.