[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[TheRealBobMan]

Yeah, I think Purple is during recovery and Yellow is during startup. Purple isn't necessarily bad... what if you whiff a totally punishable move? You couldn't RC it before, but now you have PRC to become safe.

I-No should be substantially easier. There are reports of auto-JI with Chemical Love, and Chemical Love's input was changed to a 214. Combine that with time slow on YRCs, which seem to have bigger windows than FRCs... yeah. And dash cancels on some normals, so getting something off of f.S should be a little easier, and we actually get stuff off of non-corner non-CH 6H for no meter. And then the tumble on Sdive looks like it'll make confirms a little easier.

[Blade]

It's not difficult. You can RC everything everytime with a few exceptions.

The new RC slows time for a brief moment, allowing easier execution for better comboing.

Some moves, usually projectiles, can YRC in some frames windows (like FRC but MUCH larger), and costs 25% instead 50%

That is the basics of how it works

I'm wondering exactly how this will all apply to things like Frame Lag online... I know this is precisely why they altered the RC System too.

[REPTILE0009]

So will the game be following the trends set by BlazBlue and Persona by possibly being more simplified/easier to play, as well as being more tutorialized?

[D.R.F.]

Haha looks like ill see more inos around

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[D.R.F.]

Can't wait for xrd to get in arcades to see how everything works together

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[BladeOfJustice7]

So will the game be following the trends set by BlazBlue and Persona by possibly being more simplified/easier to play, as well as being more tutorialized?

The revamping of the RC system, removal of mechancis such as FB's and slashback among other things, is a clear indication of the game becoming more simplified. It's been covered in depth by elvenshadow already.

Could you clarify what you mean by "tutorialized" exactly?

Also, I don't get it, is i-no harder than Eddie/Zato, I thought he was the hardest character to use. I knew I-no isn't, but I didn't know her execution was/is a barrier for players...

[Pichy]

The hardest part of I-no's execution was dashing Chemical Love FRC. You had to input the chemical love followed by the first 6, then do the FRC, then the next 6. If you didn't do it in the right order with the right timing, you wouldn't get the correct followup to continue the combo. You also had to jump install it in earlier games, with AC putting auto-JI on the move at least (or was it /? My memory's a bit rusty on that).

[Horokei]

There is no auto-JI on HCL and VCL. I-no got it only in Xrd

[TheRealBobMan]

Well, if you want to talk about difficulty, you can probably break it down into "execution" and "strategic" sections.

Someone like Zappa isn't that hard to control or execute, but you're basically learning to play 5 characters, so he's rather difficult on the strategic end (he's probably the upper bound on that actually, since you have to learn every matchup X5). Dizzy has lots of different fish patterns to figure out, Venom has his ball formations, etc.

Someone like Eddie is hard on execution, but his strategic requirements probably aren't as high as other characters. I don't play Eddie so I don't know if his execution requirements are as high as I-No, but he has unblockable set-ups, so at the very least he might not have to work quite as hard as some characters to land a hit once he gets you blocking, not that I-No has to either with her mixup. Not sure how much character specific combo stuff he has to learn either, but I-No is pretty steep there.

So, for reference, 5K > HCL > 6FRC6 > j.S > FFVCL is a general thing that an I-No player really needs to link stuff together and go for high damage. It's hard to combo off some openers like Sdive or STBT-S without it, it gives her good corner push which is important since she does most of her damage in the corner, and HCL/VCL are some of her highest damage moves so that string is actually one of her high-damage options anyway. Now I'll break it down a bit.

5K > HCL is the easiest part, but you can still **** it up. 5K is a lvl 2 move and HCL has 11 frames start up, so if you delay even a little you're not going to cancel on time and it'll drop. HCL is a 632146 input, and you also need to jump install HCL since it doesn't auto-JI, so you need to buffer an up input in there somewhere (doing a 360 works really well for this). Messing up the 5K > HCL cancel usually means super jumping a j.K because of how fast you do the input, which means you get ****ed.

Then, HCL's FRC point is frames 16-17. Hitting any FRC takes work to get consistent at. The problem is that you need to dash out of this move... you have 4 frames from the time you cancel until you lose the ability to dash because of the height requirement, so you need to split the input as 6FRC6. Then, the window for the double tap to count as an airdash is 10 frames, so you need to make sure that the second forward input is within the 4 frame window, and that the first input is no more than 10 frames before it. So at this point, you could do the first 6 too early and not dash, miss the FRC, or do the second 6 too early/late and not dash.

After that you usually want to link into j.S, and you have time for it since HCL is lvl 5, but sometimes you'll do the j.S too early and drop the combo. In order to get the fast-fall version of VCL, you have to do it during airdash frames, so you have to do the 632146S out of j.S pretty quick. I-No's airdash lasts longer in +R... long enough that you can actually do an airdash j.K > j.S > FFVCL where that's necessary, but in AC you pretty much just had to do j.K or j.S since it would take too long to do both. Otherwise you wouldn't get the fast-fall and the combo would end there.

Now, as if that doesn't seem complicated enough, I-No needs to follow up the HCL > 6FRC6 with different things depending on the character, their vertical position on the screen, and where you both are relative to the corner. Sometimes you want to do 6FRC6 > j.S > j.H > land > c.S, sometimes you go into 6FRC6 > j.S > FFVCL > whatever, sometimes it's 6FRC6 > j.H > j.D > VCL > 5P, sometimes it's even HCL > 6FRC6 > FFVCL with no linker between!

So... it's difficult because there's a lot of margin for error since there are so many things you can fuck up for a "basic" string she uses all the time, and sometimes you have to adjust your combo on the fly depending on one starter being used rather than another, and you have to adjust a lot based on character weight/hitbox. 5K > HCL doesn't even work on Faust unless he's already airborne! I-No really gets a lot from being able to 5K > HCL > 6FRC6, so that really difficult thing is a pretty big barrier to playing her.

I'm sure playing Eddie is difficult since you have to control Little Eddie and all that, but I-No definitely competes with that (and I've heard some people say she's harder) since there are so many ways to mess up stuff that's like her BnB.

And on strategy... she's really freestyle, but since her hitboxes suck you really want to know what the other character's moves do. That applies to everyone so I hate saying it, but you really want to know that you can beat move X with Q, and Y with R, if you know what I mean. It's really easy for someone with good hitboxes to disrespect her in the neutral game, so while she can roll someone off of one knockdown, sometimes it's hard just to get the chance for a knockdown since her moves lose a lot of the time. She has solid tools, but they're all pretty deliberate.

Edited January 25, 2014 by TheRealBobMan

[BladeOfJustice7]

Wow, I know Eddie is impossible to play on pad, my cousin is learning him and, after about 5-10 minutes he told me to give him a stick. But either because his execution is strong or because he plays Arakune he was able to adjust to how Eddie works.

Using Eddie on neutral, from what can see is where he can be a turn off with all those buttons you have to hold at different times to use both him and little Eddie is what makes him hard. My cousin didn't have as hard of a time doing his combos at least in training mode. I can see now why some are turned off by I-no, already comboing and FRC's are a big issue and learning curve with each character, let alone having to adjust all of these things on the fly with such inputs seems like a huge hurdle to overcome.

Thanks for the write up

I'm glad I stuck with Ky the moment I saw him, I've come to realize GG has some extremely ridiculous characters to use amongst its cast members.

[HoudiniJr100]

Wow, I know Eddie is impossible to play on pad, my cousin is learning him and, after about 5-10 minutes he told me to give him a stick. But either because his execution is strong or because he plays Arakune he was able to adjust to how Eddie works.

Using Eddie on neutral, from what can see is where he can be a turn off with all those buttons you have to hold at different times to use both him and little Eddie is what makes him hard. My cousin didn't have as hard of a time doing his combos at least in training mode. I can see now why some are turned off by I-no, already comboing and FRC's are a big issue and learning curve with each character, let alone having to adjust all of these things on the fly with such inputs seems like a huge hurdle to overcome.

Thanks for the write up

I'm glad I stuck with Ky the moment I saw him, I've come to realize GG has some extremely ridiculous characters to use amongst its cast members.

:P I admit I'm glad slayer's in, but if order sol is gone I at least got normal sol as a close second...just needs gun blaze XD

[9:02 PM]

The revamping of the RC system, removal of mechancis such as FB's and slashback among other things, is a clear indication of the game becoming more simplified.

I have to disagree with this. It might not have been you saying it, you could have just been quoting REPTILE0009 who used the word tutorialized, but I think some people are incorrectly drawing the conclusion that lowering execution barriers or removing mechanics necessarily makes a game more simple to play at a high level. The gameplay implications of the substitution of FRCs for yellow cancels and the lack of force breaks will more likely than not end up making the game more difficult to play outside of the very specific task of hitting a 2-3 frame FRC window, which really anyone can learn. Combos will probably be easier without FRCs, but neutral will require a lot more thought, especially without force breaks.

YRCs at the moment only allow you to cancel an attack during startup, and at that only specific attacks, and they still cost 25% tension. There are a lot of FRCs in AC that end up making certain moves or strategies extremely beginner friendly in the sense that you can just throw them out with little to no risk for often pretty huge reward. See: All of Zappa's sword specials that have FRC points, Tatami FRC/Sakura FRC, Gunflame FRC, etc.

I actually like the FRC mechanic, and in general FRCs do ALLOW for really high level play, but at the level most people play guilty gear at, FRCs turn those moves into flashy scrub food.

In that same vein, it would take an essay to explain how much of a crutch force breaks are for most players. Again, not saying it's a bad mechanic by design, just that in a lot of cases FBs do facilitate that 'just do it' playstyle, and even among better players it allows them to be really lazy in certain situations. Whether you like FBs or hate them, the fact that in competitive play you see FBs to overdrives in like a 9999/1 ratio should tell you something.

The removal of slashbacks is a loss of depth I guess. I would have preferred they leave it in, but we'll have to see how Blitz Shield turns out a year from now.

Edited January 26, 2014 by 9:02 PM

[Xtra_Zero]

I still don't quite get what Blitz Shield does. Anyone care to reexplain?

[SolxBaiken]

I still don't quite get what Blitz Shield does. Anyone care to reexplain?

I thought it was essentially just an easy mode parry? Except there are repercussions for whiffing it.

[Kaizen]

From what's been observed and from rumors, Blitz Shield:

-Knocks back the opponent into a long state similar to stagger. Basically a hit with no damage, with about a second or so of hitstun. So free punish.

-Requires proper blocking. Block lows low, block highs high. Air Blitz Shield is like chicken blocking.

-Is active for quite a while. Using it successfully doesn't seem to end the active time.

-Costs 25 meter.

-Cannot be used while already in blockstun.

-Can't be used against IKs.

...so while it's similar to a parry made easier, it's also got a tell, a cooldown time, and a big meter cost. The IK bit is also important, what with the rumor of Hellfire mode dropping the opponent's IK activation to instant and allowing a combo into IK (so basically free Astral Finishes).

Dunno if it has the drawbacks of Slashback whiffs (no block, followup SB attempts are weaker, etc.), but it's definitely not as strict.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'm pretty sure you can grab someone out of their Blitzshield if they mistimed it, so that's a draw back. They never said it catches grabs, and you lose 25% meter if it is mistimed as well, which is another big deal with how important tension is in GG.

I think that's good enough for Blitzshield, I'm already salty that SB almost makes Ky's 3hs useless when he just got it back.

[excelence]

Wow, I know Eddie is impossible to play on pad, my cousin is learning him and, after about 5-10 minutes he told me to give him a stick. But either because his execution is strong or because he plays Arakune he was able to adjust to how Eddie works.

Nah ... if u really trying ... u can do whatever u can do at stick with pad, 1 of my friend is pretty solid with 6p>mawaru>puddle>ik & shark loop combos, and the other do HCL>ad combos fine... don't have Video record to back this up thought >_>, but since then i've never make an excuse pad player're handicaped with execution.

[Blade]

Nobody answered my question, earlier...

What all do we know about Blitzshield?

What does it do on IAD or Jump attacks. Does the opponent bounce off and go flying backwards ala Soul Calibur V's repel deflecting mechanic?

Is the window more or less generous than Slashback was?

What happens when someone manages to Okizeme Blitzshield Sol's Volcanic Viper on Reversal?

[Delrian]

Nobody answered my question, earlier...

What all do we know about Blitzshield?

What does it do on IAD or Jump attacks. Does the opponent bounce off and go flying backwards ala Soul Calibur V's repel deflecting mechanic?

Is the window more or less generous than Slashback was?

What happens when someone manages to Okizeme Blitzshield Sol's Volcanic Viper on Reversal?

From what's been observed and from rumors, Blitz Shield:

-Knocks back the opponent into a long state similar to stagger. Basically a hit with no damage, with about a second or so of hitstun. So free punish.

-Requires proper blocking. Block lows low, block highs high. Air Blitz Shield is like chicken blocking.

-Is active for quite a while. Using it successfully doesn't seem to end the active time.

-Costs 25 meter.

-Cannot be used while already in blockstun.

-Can't be used against IKs.

...so while it's similar to a parry made easier, it's also got a tell, a cooldown time, and a big meter cost. The IK bit is also important, what with the rumor of Hellfire mode dropping the opponent's IK activation to instant and allowing a combo into IK (so basically free Astral Finishes).

Dunno if it has the drawbacks of Slashback whiffs (no block, followup SB attempts are weaker, etc.), but it's definitely not as strict.

And I doubt anyone know about blitz shielding against an air move or invincible moves.

[Kaizen]

And I doubt anyone know about blitz shielding against an air move or invincible moves.

There's a vid from the second loketest of Sol vs Slayer where Slayer Blitz Shield's Sol's IAD j.H and Sol goes into the same staggered state in the air, but he just kinda bounces straight up a bit. He seems to recover before he lands, though. The Slayer doesn't punish it, but it looks like the Blitz Shield ends and he just keeps normal blocking.

He does it on wakeup, so it also seems like it's a good reversal option for everybody (unlike Slashback, can't SB on wakeup for ~10 frames).

I'd imagine an oki Blitz Shield would beat a VV. It's essentially a tweaked parry.

The footage has been taken down from youtube, though.

[RoBoBOBR]

BSing an air move floats them a bit for an easy punish, it was discussed in this thread.

[REPTILE0009]

Could someone explain to me again how exactly Bedman is supposed to play?

[Pichy]

Like Magneto with Yukiko 2D.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Pichy

[Pichy]

Snarky quips aside, it's basically this:

- 8-way airdash, allowing for triangle jumps like Magneto

- Slayer dashes on the ground

- Each of his special moves are input with 236. Two are fireballs, one is a sumo splash that hits overhead, and the fourth was something else. Him spinning a bunch I think?

- When he does a special move, a little marker comes out indicating where he did it. If he inputs 214 with that move's button, then an afterimage of him performing the move comes out from that spot. Thankfully, the sumo splash afterimage doesn't hit overhead.

- One of his supers is a big cloud of darkness that's unblockable and builds a stupid amount of stun. When combined with him having a ludicrously fast startup time on his IK, this meant that he pretty much won every game once he had 50 tension in the test.

- Is voiced by Hikaru Midorikawa. He's going to kill Relena Peacecraft for sure this time.

[Kitsoru]

- Is voiced by Hikaru Midorikawa. He's going to kill Relena Peacecraft for sure this time.

(It's actually sorta gone the other way around in The Novel That Never Ends so far... :V)

Anyway, did anyone else feel like what was being shown at the test may have been a boss-mode, and they were seeing how players would react to him to tweak him for actual playability? I don't know if that's something that ever happens with characters which are released with both a playable and boss-only version at the same time, just seems a little more reasonable if so (and maybe wishful thinking?)