[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[NecroTheReaper]

But then it wouldn't help me xP makes me so pissed when a dp slaps ignis just to make the actives on it increase to like 30000 and I end up gettin CH'd Dx

[Myoro]

But then it wouldn't help me xP makes me so pissed when a dp slaps ignis just to make the actives on it increase to like 30000 and I end up gettin CH'd Dx

I just wish Ignis wouldn't extend people's actives. Makes 236A+D a little useless.

[TD]

tried 2d? its slower which 6d has an advantage at. its advantages are its 2 hits and auto guard, two attributes 6d lacks and often the reason why it loses. l personally think 2d is better in that situation and 6d is the situational one but really its personal preference. and luck. neither option is stellar.

[Dark Ranger88]

Mu's DP wouldn't be so frustrating if its startup was fixed at 14 frames. As it is now (as far as I can tell) whenever an attack hits the guardpoint Origins becomes active after like 1 or 2 frames. For example, if you hit Origins on its second frame of startup it will go active on frame 3 or 4 instead of frame 14. It beats safejumps, whiff option selects, and anything I can think of.

But I guess that's the point of a DP. When fighting Mu I shouldn't have an easy way around her defensive options. I have to make reads. (Except that most people can low-profile Makoto's DP)

Also, could someone explain to me why Mu isn't S-Tier or at least ranked higher than Jin.

She has:

Godlike pokes on the ground and air in the form of j.C and 5C.

Reliable anti-airs and 2B low profile.

Zoning capabilities, especially when 4 steins are up.

One of the best DPs in the game, Origins. Plus a good backdash.

High ass damage.

A fast overhead that can convert without using meter (and you can rapid 2B after the first hit)

Ability to convert air hits into big damage, without using meter.

50-50 mixup off of 5B.

Easy approaches after 236D or during Stein zoning.

Easy combos.

Fast run with good initial speed.

Cons: Somewhat low HP

This just might be me speaking from the Makoto matchup, but you have to COMPLETELY outplay a Mu in in every aspect in order to win. All of her tools are just good. I'm not saying I hate the character, mind you. I actually like the challenge. I'm just wondering why people don't regard her as one of the best in the game when having the Tao/Valk/Jin/Hazama/Haku discussions.

Edit: Also lol. The wiki says she is unforgiving for players without a firm grasp of neutral. MAKOTO is unforgiving to players without a firm grasp on neutral. Mu can hit halfway across the screen from the air and the ground, unforgiving for her opponents maybe.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Dark Ranger88

[NecroTheReaper]

I've tried 2D, because its autoguard lasts longer I still get screwed by DP's actives even when it -should- work. Granted I tested this against the most absurdly slow DP in the game (Jin's C dp).

Also, when is this game gonna decide if ignis/nirvana are projectile or physical? xD

[Kiba]

Mu's DP wouldn't be so frustrating if it didn't exist

Cool stuff.

High ass damage.

Exaggeration.

50-50 mixup off of 5B.

This doesn't make it a pro LOL. Many other characters have that trait!

Her mixup isn't as good as you think it is either. She doesn't really have a good way to stay in your face and once she commits to a C normal she's gonna have to play the poke game or retreat back to neutral and build her fortress again. It's not in her game to try and stay in your face like characters such as Tao or Valkenhayn. It's more restricting for Mu.

It's easy for you to see Mu as how you think she is because you use Makoto, but at the same time I think you need a little more time studying Mu.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Kiba

[TD]

all what kiba said and more.

didnt want to break down the whole thing cause l have the head pains. certainly though, mu has a few outstanding weaknesses that are simple to exploit. not to be confused with 'easy', perse, as even the simpler punishes can be inconsistent due to lasers.

dependant mostly on the character, mu has to change how she zones, pokes, moves around, and pressures pretty substantially.

lastly, mu is well rounded but her best trait is poking. the rest is lacking one or several traits which makes other characters powerful, so she needs to harmonize her moves in order to be effective.

[Loli Bacon]

all what kiba said and more.

didnt want to break down the whole thing cause l have the head pains. certainly though, mu has a few outstanding weaknesses that are simple to exploit. not to be confused with 'easy', perse, as even the simpler punishes can be inconsistent due to lasers.

dependant mostly on the character, mu has to change how she zones, pokes, moves around, and pressures pretty substantially.

lastly, mu is well rounded but her best trait is poking. the rest is lacking one or several traits which makes other characters powerful, so she needs to harmonize her moves in order to be effective.

Pretty much. I feel her worst trait is lack of rushdown/pressure options. Like Platinum, the second she commits to using a C move, she is publicly saying she's done pressuring you and will be returning to zoning/spacing. Top tier characters don't do this (Tao, Valk, Hazama, Koko, Litchi)

[TagerTime]

Also, could someone explain to me why Mu isn't S-Tier or at least ranked higher than Jin.

If you click the link Xie gives very good explanations for why mu and every char is placed where they are.

Xie's BBCP - Pre Console Tier List (Link Fixed) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gbeudMMDSFnqd1w_P6XrJC4pdOasyfX1GQE3rl8yvtI/edit?pli=1

Position in a rank is a factor of overall toolset, stability, and raw power.

Within ranks, characters are listed in the order that they appeared in the series.

There is no difference in character ranking within a given rank.

S: Taokaka, Litchi, Hazama, Valkenhayn

A: Ragna, Jin, Rachel, Hakumen, Mu-12, Relius, Azrael

B: Noel, Tager, Bang, Carl, Arakune, Nu-13, Tsubaki

C: Makoto, Platinum, Amane, Bullet, Izayoi

Edited February 5, 2014 by TagerTime

[Dark Ranger88]

Exaggeration.

Does she not deal high damage? Does simply including the word "ass" invalidate all of my points?

Her mixup isn't as good as you think it is either. She doesn't really have a good way to stay in your face and once she commits to a C normal she's gonna have to play the poke game or retreat back to neutral and build her fortress again. It's not in her game to try and stay in your face like characters such as Tao or Valkenhayn. It's more restricting for Mu.

I can see your point about her pressure and mixup. Unless you're in the corner she's pretty much 1 mixup attempt and done. Still Ragna was top in Extend and (barring the corner) it was hard for him to say in the opponent's face and successfully mix them up.

You're right. I haven't played one of the high mobility characters, so I can't speak from those matchups. Neutral vs Mu might be really easy for a Tao/Haz/Valk, thus influencing the matchup. That's why I made my post, to get input from other players on why she isn't considered the best.

Edit: Also thanks for all the input from the rest of you guys. You posted while I was writing this lol.

Double edit: Also TagerTime, it says the link doesn't exist. I'll try to look for it on my own.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Dark Ranger88

[D.R.F.]

I don't think ragnas higer than jin (ragna main) because of that stability jin has

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[TagerTime]

Double edit: Also TagerTime, it says the link doesn't exist. I'll try to look for it on my own.

thanks i fixed the link

I don't think ragnas higer than jin (ragna main) because of that stability jin has

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Please read more carefully:

Within ranks, characters are listed in the order that they appeared in the series.

There is no difference in character ranking within a given rank.

Edited February 5, 2014 by TagerTime

[Kiba]

Does she not deal high damage? Does simply including the word "ass" invalidate all of my points?

Kokonoe deals high ass damage. I would say Mu's damage is solid. That is all.

[D.R.F.]

thanks i fixed the link

Please read more carefully:

Within ranks, characters are listed in the order that they appeared in the series.

There is no difference in character ranking within a given rank.

Oh, my bad

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[Loli Bacon]

Kokonoe deals high ass damage. I would say Mu's damage is solid. That is all.

I'd say Mu has more consistent damage, and Koko has higher max damage.

[Seiska]

Pretty much. I feel her worst trait is lack of rushdown/pressure options. Like Platinum, the second she commits to using a C move, she is publicly saying she's done pressuring you and will be returning to zoning/spacing. Top tier characters don't do this (Tao, Valk, Hazama, Koko, Litchi)

You mean midscreen? Platinum has plenty of shit she can throw at you in the corner after her 3C, 6C and especially 5C, even more if you consider her items.

Not that many characters can continue pressure in midscreen after doing C move other than 5C.

You're right. I haven't played one of the high mobility characters, so I can't speak from those matchups. Neutral vs Mu might be really easy for a Tao/Haz/Valk, thus influencing the matchup. That's why I made my post, to get input from other players on why she isn't considered the best.

Fast running speed and/or good poke is all you need to catch Mu doing her drive and many of her slower moves from surprisingly long distance. E.g Platinum can do this with dash 2B which leads to her common combo options.

Some characters that lack this can probably lock her down with stuff like Platinum's missiles, Rachel's pumpkin and really make her life difficult on certain ranges.

Mu becomes a lot easier after you learn her attack speed and range plus get good at using dash barrier cancel, provided that your character has decent normals to continue from that and your not just dashing on to her pressure.

Also lol'd at the Platinum being C-tier, guess decent Platinum players are a rare breed in arcades or something.

Not surprising though, many probably consider her as Joke character, when she's actually Lethal Joke Character..

Edited February 5, 2014 by Seiska

[BlackYakuzu94]

I think its because her game plan is randomized most of the time.

[Seiska]

I think its because her game plan is randomized most of the time.

Not really, most of the time her drive is just there to give her more options for her existing game plan which in my opinion depends more on the opponent than her currently equipped item or next.

At least for me, most hit confirms come from anti-airs, 2B, 6B and from her generic OKI options, relying too much on drive leads to bad results with most characters and Platinum is no exception.

In my opinion people are just over thinking her situational nature, Sure she might be unable to land her most damaging combos without certain items in certain situations but it's likely that she'll be able to land something that will give her advantage or another (e.g discard unfitting item, equip better item, fill the level with all kinds of shit or just drag the opponent down to the depths of mix-up hell).

But still, choosing correct course of action or combo route with her requires a bit more situational awareness than most of the cast, which is not something you can obtain in training mode alone.

But as I understand difficulty had nothing to do with tiers?

[SoWL]

relying too much on drive leads to bad results with most characters and Platinum is no exception.

What. Drive is what all characters are built around, you cannot do well if you don't use it properly (with Hakumen probably being the only exception). If you're not using Plat's Drive, you're gimping yourself for no reason.

Her randomness means that you're not guaranteed to get those rockets to approach a zoner, or get that bat to get people off of you meterless. Lots of characters can do both at any time, but she cannot, even if these tools are a bit more powerful to compensate. And even then, you can get stuff like the present or the piko-piko hammer, which are pretty useless unless upgraded.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Not really, most of the time her drive is just there to give her more options for her existing game plan which in my opinion depends more on the opponent than her currently equipped item or next.

At least for me, most hit confirms come from anti-airs, 2B, 6B and from her generic OKI options, relying too much on drive leads to bad results with most characters and Platinum is no exception.

In my opinion people are just over thinking her situational nature, Sure she might be unable to land her most damaging combos without certain items in certain situations but it's likely that she'll be able to land something that will give her advantage or another (e.g discard unfitting item, equip better item, fill the level with all kinds of shit or just drag the opponent down to the depths of mix-up hell).

But still, choosing correct course of action or combo route with her requires a bit more situational awareness than most of the cast, which is not something you can obtain in training mode alone.

But as I understand difficulty had nothing to do with tiers?

I don't know how Xie judges characters, but if he does judge them by their gameplan then the reasons you listed might be the reasons; her options are mostly dependent on what item she has and while she can function just fine without them, she's far more effective with them. So I'd imagine playing effectively with Platinum comes down to adapting to certain situations depending on what item you have.

Now, I don't play Platinum at all so I can't really say my word is worth anything, but its something I've noticed watching matches with her, and playing against them. Her bat gives her a decent reversal, her kitty hammer lets her get in better, etc. etc.

[TD]

then theres her damage being toned down a sizable amount from the last game. she can hit hard but it needs to come from specific situations

her OD is just as situational. it doesn't upgrade or change the item, so you might get stuck with presents in a dire situation. not exactly useful.

she has ok tools without drive but it is not enough to help her succeed in certain matchups. she almost cannot zone at all without it, and still may not be able to with it, or forced to because that kitty hammer just doesn't want to show up.

defensive options are also lame if not situational. counter is weak, though its properties are great and decent for laming your way into momentum. bat is good but situational. cdt is all or nothing, not too reliable.

[Kinkuli]

Also lol'd at the Platinum being C-tier, guess decent Platinum players are a rare breed in arcades or something.

Not surprising though, many probably consider her as Joke character, when she's actually Lethal Joke Character..

Actually there's a lot of decent and really good platinums in arcades. The fact just is that she isn't that of a good character mostly because of the reasons Xie gave in his document. And to top it of she isn't "dirty" enough. Even if she gets correct items in correct times, she's just honest at that point. Nothing that major to abuse tbh. She also dies to pressure and what you know all the top tiers have pretty damn good pressure in this game!

Anyways. Nerf valk, koko and tao. Don't neuter them, but make them a bit less silly. Do something to hakumen, he's pretty dull i suppose. If you want to go nuts, give azrael BDC, ODC to gustaf and a command grab #kappa.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Kinkuli

[NecroTheReaper]

She still has situational high damage (I lol every time I get caught in OD missile vortex for 5k). She's not great, but not bad either. Sorta right there in the middle. It doesn't seem to me though that her game plan relies on her items. It seems more about getting respect for her more dangerous mixup like IOH j.B's off swallow moon. When you have bat, almost everything is a frane trap, when you have hammer, you get them closer to danger zone, when you have presents, its essentially a pressure reset, but none of these are really useful without her already existing moveset. I played against a good plat and got destroyed entirely (though to be fair, they were better than me in general).

[Angry Guy of DE]

If Plat could just naturally use all of her item moves with inputs she could be obnoxious or border on over powered. Her items can help improve some of her aspects in zoning / mixups / combo continuation but only a certain number of times depending on the item.

If just some of her moves were a little better like her command grab to not be gimmicky and be a legitimate mix-up it would help her pressure with having to rely on a situational item. Her 6B seems lacking in some degree compared to other overheads, I know it is positive on block but either the range or speed of it hinders its use in pressure strings.

I don't know any named Platinum players off the top of my head but watching good Platinum gameplay is exciting and often unique with use of items.

[NecroTheReaper]

I don't think its safe anymore in CP, wiki says -7. But it is the 3rd fastest normal grounded overhead in the game. It had quite a bit of actives, so from max range I think it could be +1, but anyway.