[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[SoWL]

I think that article also mentions that bursts now last longer (have more active frames?).

[Kriegdrache]

I guess it's a matter of waiting to see what else they've changed about him tbh.

I can't get over Az's revealed change though. Bang's seems pretty cool, seems like they're trying to make him a bit stronger.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I will laugh hysterically if that is the only thing they felt they needed to fix on Hakumen.

Granted, like Moblin said. this probably means less meter gained back in combos.

[Poultrygeist]

I think they're paranoid about making Hakumen suck again lol. All this is going to do is make people pop unit cookiedough faster. Like the Azrael change though, that's pretty awesome.

[mAc Chaos]

> again

[D.R.F.]

I think they're paranoid about making Hakumen suck again lol. All this is going to do is make people pop unit cookiedough faster. Like the Azrael change though, that's pretty awesome.

They COULD lower his 5c beginning p1, since combos from that do ugles of damage, but idk the combos I have been ripped a new asshole usually by those starting with 5c

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[Airk]

They COULD lower his 5c beginning p1, since combos from that do ugles of damage, but idk the combos I have been ripped a new asshole usually by those starting with 5c

He just needs to stop being exempt from the rules of the game with regard to damage scaling. Seriously. Having his specials ignore character combo rate is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's tantamount to having a character that has 12k health but for some reason doesn't die until he hits -3k. Not only does it result in the character having a ridiculous advantage, but it breaks the system in a way that provides no meaningful benefit. If you wanted him to do lots of damage, you should just use the system to make him do lots of damage, not kludge around it like that.

Fix that. If it's not a bug it should be. Combos off a 5C should be pretty devastating, but Hakumen's 5C isn't, in and of itself, any better than 'most characters' (Same proration as Ragna's 5C, or Bullet's 5C, or Platinum's 5C.)

Though I think someone seriously needs to go through and look at the normals on the characters who aren't doing very well. While the fact that Amane/Izayoi/Tsubaki/Makoto all have worse-than-average proration on their 5C probably isn't the -cause- of them not being strong, it sure isn't helping either. Why are characters who are already at the bottom of the power heap stuck with inferior normals compared to the likes of Hazama and Valk?

Secret tip for Arc Sys: If you give a character crazy movement options, maybe they shouldn't have better normals than the rest of the cast. In fact, maybe they should >gasp< have LESS GOOD normals.

[Errol]

i don't think ignoring combo rate is bad. what that does is it makes his specials valuable to use during combos. you could easily see a reverse side to it, where people barely use specials because the reward for expending more quickly drops off. would kind of be like tsubaki - using charge in combos for tsubaki is pretty iffy in a lot of cases which is unfortunate.

[NecroTheReaper]

Why do people hate Haks so much in CP? Even when he was way more OP in Ex, its not like he was unbeatable. In fact, he had even more "lol dat damage" combos (granted not as high) what were just [236B>623A]xN for 7-8k in mugen. At least now they have SMP xD

[D.R.F.]

That's true, maybe I'm just bitching too much still 8k by the time overdrive is useful is usually death for my no health ragna:(((

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[D.R.F.]

I'm honestly more mad at hazama and his normals:/ thanks to airk for reminding me of that

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[Airk]

i don't think ignoring combo rate is bad. what that does is it makes his specials valuable to use during combos. you could easily see a reverse side to it, where people barely use specials because the reward for expending more quickly drops off. would kind of be like tsubaki - using charge in combos for tsubaki is pretty iffy in a lot of cases which is unfortunate.

And lo, as if by magic, his combos fall down to the level of damage he SHOULD be doing. What's the problem again, exactly?

Why do people hate Haks so much in CP? Even when he was way more OP in Ex, its not like he was unbeatable. In fact, he had even more "lol dat damage" combos (granted not as high) what were just [236B>623A]xN for 7-8k in mugen. At least now they have SMP xD

Really? You're going to use Mugen combos as the reason he was strong in EX? Frankly, if Hakumen has 8 stars, with his lower rate of star gain compared to CP, and managed to turn a hit into a Mugen combo AND your opponent didn't just burst it and make you waste all your stars, good on you, but that's about as silly as accusing Tsubaki of being really good because she could 8k or something with 100% heat 5 charge install combo. Good on you if you can make it happen.

People hate him in CP because there's no reason for him to work the way he does. There's no reason for him to get an air special that breaks all the rules for how air specials work (if anyone can find me another air move that has body and foot properties, I will eat my hat, and no, things like Litchi's j.2D[m] don't count - she's on the ground when she does the attack with the foot property.) Agito doesn't even have any business being a projectile, nevermind any of the other stuff. So he gets in for free because who wants to risk getting CH by something that seems explicitly designed to beat anti-air moves? Winning? Nah. Under any circumstances in which he has a burst and low health, he can pretty much completely kill you from any of half a dozen or more starters. And you CAN'T burst that. This isn't even Tager level "welp, you got caught in a 720, sucks to be you" because there are so many ways he can kick that off.

Hakumen had some stuff in Extend where you'd look at it and go "I don't really understand why that is so good, but okay, I guess". Hakumen in CP has a bunch of stuff where you look at it and say "WTFBBQ? Really?! Why did anyone think it was okay for any character to do that?!" A character doesn't have to be "unbeatable" to piss people off and make them want him nerfed.

[Stellarcircle5]

@FenrirHades

I'm curious to hear what is it about Hazama that bothers you so much. From my experience, he is one of the most effective characters in the game without being too ridiculous. It's also pretty hard to autopilot with him. If its his normals, which ones in particular. Hazama's normals are generally good, with the exception of his 2A being REALLY good. The only one I could see being irritating is his 5C because it leads to ridiculous damage with Houtenjin, but that's just Hazama's gimmick.

I'm just asking because I frequently play a Hazama player, so I like to hear other opinions.

[D.R.F.]

I'm curious to hear what is it about Hazama that bothers you so much. From my experience, he is one of the most effective characters in the game without being too ridiculous. It also pretty hard to autopilot with him. If its his normals, which ones in particular. Hazama's normals are generally good, with the exception of his 2A being REALLY good. The only one I could see being irritation is his 5C because it leads to ridiculous damage with Houtenjin, but that's just Hazama's gimmick.

I'm just asking because I frequently play a Hazama player, so I like to hear other opinions.

More or less I respect the character, like I don't have qualms against haz like with some other characters, but the way he can slingshot in and out create mixups that are safe and leave, and has nice staple dmg is just frustration in a box

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[D.R.F.]

His safe pressure is a bitch too, or maybe that's just me

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[NecroTheReaper]

Airk, all I heard out of that rant was "screw diversity, everything should work the same". Also your argument keeps going all over the place and sounds like a personal issue against Hakumen. Started off with damage, and now that its been compared to how its not really different from Ex, we have to complain about his one new good move that costs meter.

[Lucalibur]

Like it was discussed before, Hakumen can be brought back to fun to use AND fair to fight against levels if some of his old CSE tools were brought back and combo rate started being applied to his specials. I don't really care about Agito personally, but if it's as bad as some people make it out to be then just remove the projectile and maybe the body attributes it has. Personally I don't WANT to see that happening because I'm tired of nerfing, and I don't think it's that dumb of a tool that it needs some emergency nerfing, just a really good tool in general.

@Stellarcircle From what I know, both from fighting against AND using Hazama, he simply has too many good, varied tools. His pressure is too good for a character with such a godlike neutral game and mobility, and his damage potential is not only high, but consistent. His lack of true meterless DP is really the only thing keeping him from being Litchi's level of dumb, but that is just my 2 cents.

[D.R.F.]

Like it was discussed before, Hakumen can be brought back to fun to use AND fair to fight against levels if some of his old CSE tools were brought back and combo rate started being applied to his specials. I don't really care about Agito personally, but if it's as bad as some people make it out to be then just remove the projectile and maybe the body attributes it has. Personally I don't WANT to see that happening because I'm tired of nerfing, and I don't think it's that dumb of a tool that it needs some emergency nerfing, just a really good tool in general.

@Stellarcircle From what I know, both from fighting against AND using Hazama, he simply has too many good, varied tools. His pressure is too good for a character with such a godlike neutral game and mobility, and his damage potential is not only high, but consistent. His lack of true meterless DP is really the only thing keeping him from being Litchi's level of dumb, but that is just my 2 cents.

I agree with the hazama thing, and with hakumen the only thing I need to worry about after agito is j.b. coming down. Most hakumens don't do anything other than that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[Airk]

@FenrirHades

I'm curious to hear what is it about Hazama that bothers you so much. From my experience, he is one of the most effective characters in the game without being too ridiculous. It's also pretty hard to autopilot with him. If its his normals, which ones in particular. Hazama's normals are generally good, with the exception of his 2A being REALLY good. The only one I could see being irritating is his 5C because it leads to ridiculous damage with Houtenjin, but that's just Hazama's gimmick.

I'm just asking because I frequently play a Hazama player, so I like to hear other opinions.

Pretty much all of them. He has:

A 5 frame 5A (Most characters don't). That works as an anti air. And while his 5A doesn't hit crouches (like most 5 frame 5As) he also has...

A 6 frame 2A - as fast as most characters' 5A, and +1 on block, while pretty much everyone else's +on block jabs were nerfed after CS2 because +on block jabs are dumb

An 8 frame startup, +2 on block 5B. +2. On 5B.

A very long range 2B which lowers his hitbox significantly and is only -1 on block.

A crazy good anti air 2C - puts pre-nerf Tsubaki 2C to shame. Leads into hilarious damage. Jump cancellable on block. Pretty much everything you could want in an anti-air 2C

A 22 frame overhead. Yeah, great, low reward unless you have 50 meter. Whoopee.

Solid 6A for +1 on block that moves him forward.

Okay, fine 6C isn't anything really special. Good thing something isn't. :P

3C that's pretty much safe on block and leads into LOLDAMAGE on CH and low profiles...

j.B with tremendous air to air hitbox

j.2C as an excellent air to ground with hilariously good crossup capabilities.

Nearly every one of his normals is exemplary. Very few of them have any meaningful weaknesses. He has more plus on block normals than anyone else in the game (unless you count full charge Hakumen 4C. :P) and most of his moves are very quick. Basically, he's a hilarious movement semi-zoning character who has the kinds of normals you want on a rushdown character, and that the actual rushdown characters in the game don't have. This is, of course, made even sillier by his selection of specials (Really? An overhead that moves him forward a ton to maintain pressure and is plus on block?) but if you gave Tsubaki equivalently good normals, she'd immediately jump from Low B tier to mid A tier just because her mixup and pressure would be SO MUCH better. But Hazama gets these on top of everything else - crazy movement, ability to zone, explosive damage, etc.

It's not that his normals are 'godlike' in some way, but they are MUCH better than a character with all his other advantages should have. Basically, Hazama has ALL the advantages. Because why? I don't know.

[D.R.F.]

Pretty much all of them. He has:

A 5 frame 5A (Most characters don't). That works as an anti air. And while his 5A doesn't hit crouches (like most 5 frame 5As) he also has...

A 6 frame 2A - as fast as most characters' 5A, and +1 on block, while pretty much everyone else's +on block jabs were nerfed after CS2 because +on block jabs are dumb

An 8 frame startup, +2 on block 5B. +2. On 5B.

A very long range 2B which lowers his hitbox significantly and is only -1 on block.

A crazy good anti air 2C - puts pre-nerf Tsubaki 2C to shame. Leads into hilarious damage. Jump cancellable on block. Pretty much everything you could want in an anti-air 2C

A 22 frame overhead. Yeah, great, low reward unless you have 50 meter. Whoopee.

Solid 6A for +1 on block that moves him forward.

Okay, fine 6C isn't anything really special. Good thing something isn't. :P

3C that's pretty much safe on block and leads into LOLDAMAGE on CH and low profiles...

j.B with tremendous air to air hitbox

j.2C as an excellent air to ground with hilariously good crossup capabilities.

Nearly every one of his normals is exemplary. Very few of them have any meaningful weaknesses. He has more plus on block normals than anyone else in the game (unless you count full charge Hakumen 4C. :P) and most of his moves are very quick. Basically, he's a hilarious movement semi-zoning character who has the kinds of normals you want on a rushdown character, and that the actual rushdown characters in the game don't have. This is, of course, made even sillier by his selection of specials (Really? An overhead that moves him forward a ton to maintain pressure and is plus on block?) but if you gave Tsubaki equivalently good normals, she'd immediately jump from Low B tier to mid A tier just because her mixup and pressure would be SO MUCH better. But Hazama gets these on top of everything else - crazy movement, ability to zone, explosive damage, etc.

It's not that his normals are 'godlike' in some way, but they are MUCH better than a character with all his other advantages should have. Basically, Hazama has ALL the advantages. Because why? I don't know.

This man speaks the truth. And this is kinda why I hate hazama

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[Airk]

Airk, all I heard out of that rant was "screw diversity, everything should work the same". Also your argument keeps going all over the place and sounds like a personal issue against Hakumen. Started off with damage, and now that its been compared to how its not really different from Ex, we have to complain about his one new good move that costs meter.

Do bullet points help?

• Your EX comparison is bad and irrelevant, because in EX his massive damage took huge amounts of meter, was relatively constrained as to what starters it could come from, and could be ruined by a burst. All of these have been 'fixed' for CP.
  
• His non-OD damage is way better than extend, as far as I can tell and he has more stars to do it with because of faster star gain.
  
• Agito is stupid
  
• There's no reason for him to be 'outside the rules' with regard to combo rate. It just leads into his normal combos doing excessive damage. When a game has systems, you should use them.
  

We clear now? The only thing wrong with my argument is that I insisted on addressing your point about Mugen in EX.

[mAc Chaos]

wow

literally everything you wrote is wrong

except the part about agito

[Dreize]

I hate Hakumen as much as the next guy (much more, actually) but I'd take his CP damage over his Extend damage any day.

In Extend it was anything into renka > kishuu = damage, and pretty much everything lead into renka. I mean we're talking about a character that used to get 4.2k from a cornered 5A confirm with 3 magatama.

Oh god and lest we forget that 5.3k from a 15 frame overhead with no additional meter required. Christ.

Really though his average damage output was actually higher in Extend, whereas his maximum damage output in CP is much higher (please note that I'm solely discussing practical things, so no mugen).

[NecroTheReaper]

Cmon tesno, you know beating whats his names Haku in Ex was the greatest thing ever xD. But not only did Ex haku have better average damage, also more screen carry from all those j.2A iad combos. Also, 3k from counters meterless, I rest my case

[Sophisticat]

Airk, did you read my post about Haku a couple pages ago?

-------

As for the meter gain change... lol. I was expecting more, honestly. That's a pretty boring, though effective, change.

I'm not sure I like how it'll affect his gameplan, though. Depending on how different air gain is to ground, it could lead to reinforcing staying grounded, thus leading to poor matchups getting worse. Off the top of my head, getting stuck in sword spam vs. Nu could be pretty bad, though I don't doubt we'll end up with 8 stars anyway.

Anyway, I doubt it'll affect OD combos that much. There's plenty of combos you can do from the ground-only that hit like a truck.

So... I fail to see the point of this change? Unless it's not the only one? I was expecting more interesting stuff, but... oh well.