[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

it is nerfing the air juggle so you have to use OD more

[Master Of Chaos]

So much Hakumen hate jesus.

Nerf OD and call it a day.

[Lucalibur]

Alright I'm gonna have to stop you guys and correct you on a few things. First of all, Tsubaki is a 15F overhead that must either be either from a hop or a jump cancel, with the former being unable to be cancelled into and the latter being lulz. It's as hard to react as any overhead next door, but you're burning roughly 1\3 of your meter for it, which in trade gives him more reward from it than the average overhead. There was never anything wrong with Tsubaki overhead in the past, ever.

It's true, he got more corner carry from the IAD J.2A combos, but outside of the corner where he could go for specific routes that ended in 5C>3C, he got practically no oki from it. Sure, being stuck in the air after a J.C ain't that great, but it's definitely better than a knockdown to the guy getting hit. Also I'm pretty sure he didn't get 3K meterless from any counter other than possibly 5D because they prorated really fucking heavily. Hell, he gets even more damage from his counters now than he did before, so I'm not getting the logic here.

Guys, I understand to some extend(no pun intended) the Haku hate, but nobody here asked to bring shit like 236B's positive proration back, or Tsubaki's positive proration either. Just a few moves old properties that give him more OPTIONS rather than more DAMAGE, and in turn, his max damage gets lowered a lot because his specials suddenly get hit by combo rate. I honestly have no idea why not everyone is agreeing this would be the best course of action for Haku, it fixes all of the issues both Haku players and non-Haku players currently have with him, unless I'm missing something and everyone just wants to see Haku turn low tier because they're salty he is a shit, which is understandable as well, but still.

[Eshi]

Hakumen's Agito is ridiculously good but it also deals no damage without counterhit and many of his tools got huge nerfs. As is he seriously does need it.

[NecroTheReaper]

I've said nothing about nerfing haku, I dunno what you're reading. He's in a good spot, I wouldn't say he's OP or trash, but now I'm hearing complaints in every direction. And no, the only counter he can really follow up for more damage is j.D. i guess you could force 6D in which case I'd be forced to laugh until I suffocated. He can counter>wave super now. Ex was counter>decent combo into corner with meter gain. Haku wasmy most played matchup in Ex, and it wasnt just 1 haku.

[Lucalibur]

You didn't, but others did. It was more of a general statement.

Enma follow up is not only meterless(because you recover the heat back in the combo), but leads into roughly as much damage as Haku got out of his counters in CS1. Ok, not as much, but the point is that if he counters something and not through D mashing(so that he is aware of what he is countering), he can go into Enma for massive damage.

[Airk]

Alright I'm gonna have to stop you guys and correct you on a few things. First of all, Tsubaki is a 15F overhead that must either be either from a hop or a jump cancel, with the former being unable to be cancelled into and the latter being lulz. It's as hard to react as any overhead next door, but you're burning roughly 1\3 of your meter for it, which in trade gives him more reward from it than the average overhead. There was never anything wrong with Tsubaki overhead in the past, ever.

Never said there was.

Just a few moves old properties that give him more OPTIONS rather than more DAMAGE, and in turn, his max damage gets lowered a lot because his specials suddenly get hit by combo rate. I honestly have no idea why not everyone is agreeing this would be the best course of action for Haku, it fixes all of the issues both Haku players and non-Haku players currently have with him, unless I'm missing something and everyone just wants to see Haku turn low tier because they're salty he is a shit, which is understandable as well, but still.

Uh, the problem here is that what you are proposing is basically "Don't change Hakumen's power level, he's fine, he just needs to be better in exchange for doing less damage." which, I don't think is true. If he trades some of his outrageous damage for better options, he's still too strong unless the options he gains aren't "good enough" to make up for the loss of damage.

Sophisticat: I did read that post. I don't really agree with it. 6A and 6B were -4 in Extend as well, so how can them being -4 now be a nerf? (I have to assume you're talking about 6A and 6B because there is no 4B that I can find.) Half the rest of the stuff you list applies to the whole cast, so no big deal there. Yeah, losing 2B as plus on block hurts, but I'm otherwise not really feeling your pain here. Your specials are still really good and you can use more of them than ever, plus you have 'get in for free' in the form of agito, which again, would be a perfectly fine move if it 'only' worked like everyone else's tricky anti-anti-air maneuver by tampering with his jump trajectory, but no, it's instead specifically designed to beat anti-airs by being the only jump move in the game that has FOOT property, in a game where they clearly went to great pains to clean up stupid property usage, and which leads into Bad Things on CH and is pretty much utterly safe?

Fix Agito, fix combo rate, and uh, I guess lower the star gain since that's what they're doing, and he seems perfectly fine as a CP character to me.

[Lucalibur]

...Yeah, but Dreize did. I had to fix him on the Tsubaki issue, because he worded Tsubaki in a way that made it look like some sort of amazing unreactable overhead with gigaton reward, which is only half true. I hate to act like an ass, but I really dislike when people say 'I never said X' when the specific part of the post is clearly aimed at another person.

[Eshi]

You didn't, but others did. It was more of a general statement.

Enma follow up is not only meterless(because you recover the heat back in the combo), but leads into roughly as much damage as Haku got out of his counters in CS1. Ok, not as much, but the point is that if he counters something and not through D mashing(so that he is aware of what he is countering), he can go into Enma for massive damage.

Enma is super bad, it doesn't catch like normal counter does so it whiffs in a lot of situations where normal counter doesn't. Counter in general is way worse than ever. Super counter is great though.

[Lucalibur]

Oh, trust me. I agree completely with that, Eshi. His counters are ASS now. I'm just saying that the damage potential out of them is even higher now for the same cost, but it's simply not consistent.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I'd only accept a combo rate nerf if they gave him some decent average damage.

[D.R.F.]

I'd only accept a combo rate nerf if they gave him some decent average damage.

This. Honestly this. So lets talk abojt characters that COULD use some changes, like platinum:D

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[OmnixTSC]

snip

I'll concede that Agito needs to lose its Foot attribute, but it's not as much of a "get in for free" tool as you make it out to be. A Hakumen player has no business IAD'ing in like a madman with Agito (or doing the same with Hop > Agito). Sure, if Agito is blocked he gets 3-4 options to go to town on you with. There's an answer to each one of said options for most characters, though. Or you could...just block and take the auto-pilot mixup that he really doesn't get a lot off of? Out-spacing Agito is also a thing that most people refuse to do when it actually helps.

As for the combo rate, I kind of agree and disagree. I feel as if his specials need to have the properties that they do in order to be viable for combo routes, but I also feel they shouldn't be hitting as hard. Just a tiny nerf on his P1/P2 for his movelist would go a long way.

Edited February 4, 2014 by OmnixTSC

[Lucalibur]

As for the combo rate, I kind of agree or disagree. I feel as if his specials need to have the properties that they do in order to be viable for combo routes, but I also feel they shouldn't be hitting as hard. Just a tiny nerf on his P1/P2 for his movelist would go a long way.

I took a 2 minutes look at Haku's frame data. Maybe lowering Zantetsu's first hit P2 to 84(currently 94) and bringing Tsubaki's P1 back to 70(currently 90, used to be 70) would help?

As far the average damage thing up there goes, Renka, with a few changes, could easily bring Haku's average damage to an acceptable level for a fair cost of 2 stars. That being said, the heat cooldown on most of his specials feels a bit too short, which is probably why his meter gain is so stupid now. Increasing the heat gain cooldown in most specials would mean less stars, so the above mentioned new Renka route would barely gain back 1 star, while in the current version he would just gain back 1.5 stars and barely feel the loss.

[Narroo]

I'll concede that Agito needs to lose its Foot attribute, but it's not as much of a "get in for free" tool as you make it out to be. A Hakumen player has no business IAD'ing in like a madman with Agito (or doing the same with Hop > Agito). Sure, if Agito is blocked he gets 3-4 options to go to town on you with. There's an answer to each one of said options for most characters, though. Or you could...just block and take the auto-pilot mixup that he really doesn't get a lot off of? Out-spacing Agito is also a thing that most people refuse to do when it actually helps.

As for the combo rate, I kind of agree and disagree. I feel as if his specials need to have the properties that they do in order to be viable for combo routes, but I also feel they shouldn't be hitting as hard. Just a tiny nerf on his P1/P2 for his movelist would go a long way.

As someone else mentioned, my impression is that they ignore scaling rules in order to make dumping as many stars into a combo as possible a viable option. He's all about meter management. If you get a good hitconfirm, you can convert stars into damage, but loose your specials after your done. Ignoring proation rules prevents his specials from being less appetizing as the combo goes on, and prevents a situation where "Not going for the extra special" is always a bad idea due to combo length.

[Errol]

right, there are ways to nerf his damage without making it so that it people never want to spend extra orbs because the damage gain is too inefficient. it makes his specials outclass his normals for damage by a lot, even in combos. which makes sense. nerf his P1s and P2s so he does 7k in the end instead of 10k..

Or make his combos more drawn out. he pretty much totally ignores the proration system of CP, wouldn't be that way if more of his stuff were links after fully recovering, so it took more time to land those hits, or if stuff dropped if it was done too late. there's stuff that can be done, at any rate. he can pretty much go through a full OD combo off a 2a, you know. Feels like if he doesn't hit the 'instant tech' barrier he's good.

Though I might be wrong about the above...

[Dreize]

Nah, I fully understand how Tsubaki works. Still, it was an amazing overhead which is extremely hard to react to and it gave off a substantial reward. As for the whole "But it costs 3 stars argument!" he gains meter back and he gains meter for doing nothing, though I really shouldn't even be going into that argument because god knows that it's been discussed to death and it wasn't even entirely relevant to my main point.

I do see why Hakumen mains are upset though, some of his changes just didn't seem to make much sense. 5D active frames buff, 6D nerf making it practically useless, odd damage output distribution, etc.

I'm also not in the party that favors nerfing Hakumen, though really it doesn't matter anyways since this thread probably isn't going to instill any actual change.

It seems like instead of looking for nerfs/buffs Hakumen players just want change, which is reasonable, albeit not likely to happen.

[Sophisticat]

Sophisticat: I did read that post. I don't really agree with it. 6A and 6B were -4 in Extend as well, so how can them being -4 now be a nerf? (I have to assume you're talking about 6A and 6B because there is no 4B that I can find.) Half the rest of the stuff you list applies to the whole cast, so no big deal there. Yeah, losing 2B as plus on block hurts, but I'm otherwise not really feeling your pain here. Your specials are still really good and you can use more of them than ever, plus you have 'get in for free' in the form of agito, which again, would be a perfectly fine move if it 'only' worked like everyone else's tricky anti-anti-air maneuver by tampering with his jump trajectory, but no, it's instead specifically designed to beat anti-airs by being the only jump move in the game that has FOOT property, in a game where they clearly went to great pains to clean up stupid property usage, and which leads into Bad Things on CH and is pretty much utterly safe?

Fix Agito, fix combo rate, and uh, I guess lower the star gain since that's what they're doing, and he seems perfectly fine as a CP character to me.

My argument is that he lost too many options in favour of damage. I agree it needs to be toned down. But it shouldn't be at the expense of his options. He's a one-trick pony as it is.

Agito and the combo rate are fine. If you're going to nerf anything without giving him more options, then nerf OD and meter gain. He'll be more in line with the rest of the pack.

[Lucalibur]

It seems like instead of looking for nerfs/buffs Hakumen players just want change, which is reasonable, albeit not likely to happen.

Aye. I don't even play Haku anymore but I don't want to see him nerfed or anything, just changed. He is just not that fun to use anymore, he is lacking in options and all he really has is loldamage now. Most Hakus just want to see him having some of his tools back to useful levels, maybe get a new thing or two, and in trade they will give up the absurd burst damage Haku has which I doubt anyone, even them, likes in the first place.

[Sophisticat]

^ OD was fun for the first month. :D

... Then you noticed he lacked just about everything else. D:

Not saying I want EX Haks back. That guy was Terminator; efficient, hard to kill, and had an answer to everything. I just want to, you know, have an easier time landing hits. It's not much to ask for.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Sophisticat

[Eshi]

Nah, I fully understand how Tsubaki works. Still, it was an amazing overhead which is extremely hard to react to and it gave off a substantial reward. As for the whole "But it costs 3 stars argument!" he gains meter back and he gains meter for doing nothing, though I really shouldn't even be going into that argument because god knows that it's been discussed to death and it wasn't even entirely relevant to my main point.

Tsubaki is worse than it's ever been too. It's no faster than it was in previous games AFAIK. For 3 stars it gets as much damage as a regular overhead combo, +2 to get the real damage with Hotaru. Comparing to characters like Jin & Hazama who need meter to combo from their overhead too, Hakumen's cost is front-loaded while the others can spend it on reaction - if his overhead gets read, Hakumen wastes 5 meter on nothing. Also then there's things like Tsubaki hitting an air opponent causing emergency tech so Hotaru misses.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Aye. I don't even play Haku anymore but I don't want to see him nerfed or anything, just changed. He is just not that fun to use anymore, he is lacking in options and all he really has is loldamage now. Most Hakus just want to see him having some of his tools back to useful levels, maybe get a new thing or two, and in trade they will give up the absurd burst damage Haku has which I doubt anyone, even them, likes in the first place.

Its like they wanted to give him as much damage as possible, but just made everything else about the character unfun. What's the point of having more damage off of combos if they're nigh useless.

[crimsonstardust]

If you're going to nerf anything without giving him more options, then nerf OD and meter gain. He'll be more in line with the rest of the pack.

I pretty much agree with this, I just started to play Hakumen in this version about a week ago and I'm pretty surprised with how easy he gets damage and I've been doing pretty well with him cause overdrive is just too good not to use. Personally what I'd like to see his overdrive changed so he gains more meter for every hit he makes, the sped up meter build just opens up all sorts of ridiculous comebacks when he's almost dead(almost like I'm watching UMvC3 X factor comebacks). I dunno that's how I feel about his overdrive cause I like this iteration of Hakumen, and maybe tone the damage a little too.

[NecroTheReaper]

Aside from character stuff, I wish they'd give throws their range back but add like 2 or 3 more frames you can tech out at. Also, remove whatever bullshit auto-guard does to active frames since the only person that seems to help is Mu and everyone hates her DP as it is xD

[Errol]

just nerf mu, cat chair is shit enough.