Dark Ranger88 Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 JD knocks them all the way across the screen, you aren't going to get midscreen combos into OD with that. goro used that all the time. j.B jc OD is actually pretty big, you could turn random hits into big damage with it. The reason behind the j.B change is either to remove j.B j.B relaunches or to remove j.B jc OD, or both... CT nerf would be the one of less significance here. 6B change remains a mystery. I guess you guys are right about the OD thing if you're midscreen or farther. I see the 6B thing as a buff so far. I always hate it when my meaty 6B is a little late and they tried to jump out or backdash on wakeup...then they instantly tech instead of eating a combo. Also I hope we get some kind of hilarious loop with this.
StarGazer Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 6B could be significant for midscreen and oki. e.g. 6aCH> 6B> CT, 6A> 6B>???. for oki it could be like CS2 arrow enders. Or even worse they could make it bounce high and reduce the untech time on it which means they could air tech and run away from orb oki.
someonewhodied Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Wow with all these koko nerfs. She should swap out the scooter for a wheelchair
mAc Chaos Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 lol come on, she's still going to be great.
redsilversnake Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 lol come on, she's still going to be great. Pretty much. She's definitely not gonna be overpowering the entire cast by as large a margin, but Gravitrons are still useful, 22B and 214A/B are unchanged, etc. At worst, she'll just be strong rather than the best. Anyway, disappointed at the lack of Azrael nerfs. The muscle idiot could really use some.
Owner Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I agree, Azrael should have some nerfs in terms of normals and damage: - 3 moves that can be used as an AA? (+ 5B hitting air crossup attempts) - Easy high damage combos? - Nothing is punishable on block? (you have to mash against his offense)
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Azrael needs nerfs? Seriously? Get out. With as much trouble as that character has in certain matchups, leave him alone. None of his so-called buffs are going to be entirely game changing on their own, with the possible exception of Growler, which is the way that move should have worked in the first place.
NecroTheReaper Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I'm not a pro, but playing az's my level leads me to believe nothing calls for an Az nerf. Now that his DP got fixed, I feel like he'll be like he should've been from the beginning. He wasn't overwhelming, but he was still good. I'm actually surprised to hear more people bring up Az as compared to Jin and Tao.
Lucalibur Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 You know it's a sad day when people are asking for Azrael nerfs.
redsilversnake Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Azrael needs nerfs? Seriously? Get out. With as much trouble as that character has in certain matchups, leave him alone. Yes, Azrael needs nerfs. Far too many of his moves are safe on block, his dash is too good, 2C is almost braindead in several MUs, 5D is too fast an overhead, and holy shit all these specials that have guardpoint for no reason. He's certainly no Hazama or Litchi, but if you're only defense is, "Those characters don't make any sense, so he shouldn't either," then you're the one who needs to get out.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 His moves are supposed to be safe on block, that's the point, his offense is good because he has a hard time getting in. Ditto for 5D being fast, he gets no reward for without a weakpoint anyway and the reward he gets for it when he does have a weakpoint is not much unless he either has meter or corner. His dash is too good? Seriously? And for his specials having guard point for no reason, you have Valiant and Hornet which are unsafe on block and then you have Sentinel, which is just, well, do you really see people abusing Sentinel? It's as if people have no sense for character designs which by nature offer different kinds of strength. Do you really want every character to play the same way? I should call for nerfing Izayoi because I don't like the way she plays, having free 50-50 mixups on wakeup is not cool and she gets too much damage off of her 5B in Gain Art mode.
Lucalibur Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Do you even gomi? Maybe if he had normal gatling options his normals would be that great, but the required delay and short range of many of them makes them surprisingly fair. What? Are Gustav resets too strong for you? Also the guardpoint on practically all of his moves that do have it are more 'lulz' than anything, rarely being practical, though it's hilarious when it works. I won't really bother to go into detail because if I end this argument too fast then I won't be able to laugh at the salt, but I'm just gonna go ahead and give the fair warning anyone with that 'Azrael needs nerfing' mentality is wrong, but that they're free to try anyway.
Dawn of Musou Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Lol @people wanting Azrael nerfs. Jin basically stayed the same, which is awesome. Being able to dash cancel after throw won't really change throw combos but it'll allow for some interesting experiments in training mode.
NecroTheReaper Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Will being dash cancellable make it easier to get a full OD duration combo? Cuz outside of that I cant see the DC doing much.
redsilversnake Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) His moves are supposed to be safe on block, that's the point, his offense is good because he has a hard time getting in. Yes, because he has such terrible normals and Gustaf is just too unsafe if it's blocked. Ditto for 5D being fast, he gets no reward for without a weakpoint anyway and the reward he gets for it when he does have a weakpoint is not much unless he either has meter or corner. Safe moves or fast overhead, pick one or the other. Having both is just stupid. It's as if people have no sense for character designs which by nature offer different kinds of strength. Do you really want every character to play the same way? I should call for nerfing Izayoi because I don't like the way she plays, having free 50-50 mixups on wakeup is not cool and she gets too much damage off of her 5B in Gain Art mode. Translation: I don't want to acknowledge the possibility that my character has some bullshit, so I'll just put words in this guy's mouth. That'll show him. And just as an aside, I don't think that he should only get nerfs. Just that a few of his tools are too good against some of the cast. Edited February 13, 2014 by redsilversnake
Lucalibur Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) DC has slightly shorter recovery than 214B whiff, so it's gonna make linking stuff after it easier. Can't really see it opening any significant routes but I could be wrong. Edit: @redsilversnake I could not possible explain how much stuff is wrong with your post using only the languages available to the human race. Edited February 13, 2014 by Lucalibur
natearistata Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 most people tend to be wrong when they on the hate train for a character, no need to bother arguing or bringing it up. let the post fly and just discuss shit worth discussing
Speakeasy Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 So as someone that's only heard about CP and not played it, I really want to know: Will Kokonoe probably not be insanely OP now, so I can play her without feeling like I should apologize to whoever I face? She's my favorite character and I was super hyped when she was announced as playable, then super bummed when I heard how powerful she is.
Loli Bacon Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Seriously, though. Although Azrael "has a hard time getting in" I find this is a silly argument. Why go in when you can Growler and be 100% safe full screen if you absorb a projectile? Against zoners, considering Growler is considered a DP, you can use it on reaction to full screen projectiles. Then just laugh as you punish them with Phalanx Cannon. They want to approach? You have ridiculous normals and it's a bad idea. Mid range? Gustav, which is plus on block. Why is it so hard to get in if he has a dash (that tracks) that is + on block? Not to mention his really good defensive options, his high damage, and his great normals. Do you know who has a hard time getting in? Makoto, Terumi, etc... but you don't see them with such good frame advantage, damage, pressure, mixups, defensive options, or a full screen reversal that absorbs projectiles, 100% safely. He obviously needed buffs. :v
Lucalibur Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 So as someone that's only heard about CP and not played it, I really want to know: Will Kokonoe probably not be insanely OP now, so I can play her without feeling like I should apologize to whoever I face? She's my favorite character and I was super hyped when she was announced as playable, then super bummed when I heard how powerful she is. She is definitely getting nerfed, but we don't have too many details on how much yet. Here I'm hoping she ends up mid high\high tier or something because I would hate to see CS1 Rachel all over again.
redsilversnake Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 She is definitely getting nerfed, but we don't have too many details on how much yet. Here I'm hoping she ends up mid high\high tier or something because I would hate to see CS1 Rachel all over again. If the current changes are any indication, I don't think there should be any concern for her being the next CS1 Rachel. She does lose quite a bit, but it doesn't seem like she's getting hit nearly as hard as Rachel was.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Lucalibur already pointed out the short range of many of Azrael's normals. As for Gustaf, that move is +1 on block, IB it and it becomes -2. His fastest normal is 5A at 6 frames, after IBed Gustaf it's more like 8 frames, which most characters can 2A. When doing Gustaf at neutral, random neutral jumps cause it to whiff and grant free combos. Seriously, get over it. As for safe moves or fast overhead, this would be relevant if Azrael was a normal character with normal movement options and easy ways to regain offense, but again, with his lousy range and wonky forward dash, he doesn't have as many good pressure resets. Give the safety of Azrael's normals to a character like Ragna and players are gonna go to town. As is, it's basically a compensation for his weak points. He has really good offense if he gets inside because getting inside with Azrael requires some work. You can't just dash forward and randomly use Barrier to cancel your dash and block safely to get inside, you have to commit to something. Regarding dash getting him out of safe jumps, the character has no other defensive options, leave him ALONE. Even with the Growler fix, it's still not exactly a wonderful reversal. You have oki options outside of safe jumps, use them. With crossup 5A, again, the character is supposed to have good offense when he gets in, and it's not as if it's unblockable or anything. Azrael isn't even my main and I think nerfing him would be unnecessary. It just doesn't make sense. The only reasons someone would want him nerfed is that either they're salty about losing to him, or they for some reason think that there is only a certain level of acceptable strong stuff a character can have, regardless of whether or not their design balances out their strengths. Since I'd rather not accuse someone of being a whiner without evidence, the only possibility I can see is the latter, which is why I ask; do you really want every character to play the same? Because when you start balancing out characters that way, that's what will happen, whether you want that or not.
NecroTheReaper Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 You know I'd agree with every single thing you people bitchin about Az are talkin about... except all of them. Seriously, the more I hear, the more it sounds like "I dont wanna learn to fight this character who's only midrange option is mostly a neutral reset". Positive on severa moves, 80% of which have ass range. Yeah he's gonna have good normals of you judt let him gustav your face all day.
Lucalibur Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 TB, I just wanna say I love you for understanding how balancing works. Also feel like pointing out backdash is only good for getting out of safe jump mid-screen, which is already a meh option in BB due to tech rolls anyway. Forward dash has no practical INV(ain't even on the first frame too) so we're not gonna bring that one up. @redsilversnake Ya, I feel Kokonoe won't end up like CS1 Rachel again but I wanna play safe here. As much as I dislike her at the moment, the last thing I want is for characters not to get properly balanced, regardless of their tier position.
NecroTheReaper Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Funny cuz this whole Az arguement could just turn to "tell them to make your character better" ... unless you're like S tier already. Jeez they need to buff the low tiers.
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