TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Reactable overheads are a myth, though. The human brain is terrible at processing things that occur in less than a second, especially with other things to factor in, let alone allowing you to actually do anything fast enough in that timeframe. In terms of outright reacting without any cues? Sure. But 5D is the type of move where you can look for it and react to it in certain situations. If the Azrael player is using it properly (ie not so close that random 5A/2A mashing would beat it), then typically it will come off of certain moves, like 5A. In this case you should be able to anticipate it somewhat, especially if you already have upper weakness applied. Typically, when I play against other people, the first 5D I do is pretty free, but once I have upper weakness applied, players look for it and block it accordingly. The exception is when I do it in spots where it isn't expected, like when I'm point blank and people expect me to 5A or something to check their guard. If you get hit by 5D in that case, well, you got outplayed, sorry. Doesn't seem overpowered to me. For 2C, there will ALWAYS be situations where certain characters simply don't have a good answer to certain moves. Again, this is a consequence of having variety in character design. I would expect melee characters to have a tough time with Azrael because he is supposed to be good at close range. This doesn't make those moves "too good". As far as blocked 2C putting you in Azrael's pressure, that move is -3 on block and its optimal range is well outside of Azrael's typical good pressure normals. It helps to know which melee characters you've played too. I wouldn't expect Ragna or Jin to have too much trouble punishing a whiffed 2C.
D.R.F. Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 In terms of outright reacting without any cues? Sure. But 5D is the type of move where you can look for it and react to it in certain situations. If the Azrael player is using it properly (ie not so close that random 5A/2A mashing would beat it), then typically it will come off of certain moves, like 5A. In this case you should be able to anticipate it somewhat, especially if you already have upper weakness applied. Typically, when I play against other people, the first 5D I do is pretty free, but once I have upper weakness applied, players look for it and block it accordingly. The exception is when I do it in spots where it isn't expected, like when I'm point blank and people expect me to 5A or something to check their guard. If you get hit by 5D in that case, well, you got outplayed, sorry. Doesn't seem overpowered to me. For 2C, there will ALWAYS be situations where certain characters simply don't have a good answer to certain moves. Again, this is a consequence of having variety in character design. I would expect melee characters to have a tough time with Azrael because he is supposed to be good at close range. This doesn't make those moves "too good". As far as blocked 2C putting you in Azrael's pressure, that move is -3 on block and its optimal range is well outside of Azrael's typical good pressure normals. It helps to know which melee characters you've played too. I wouldn't expect Ragna or Jin to have too much trouble punishing a whiffed 2C. It doesn't necessarily make his anti-air god like its still slow. Besides for almost every character in this damn game you have mechanics suitable for not getting you in that situation. If your instant-air dashing, your taking a risk. That applies ti WAY MORE than just azrael Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
redsilversnake Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Tsubaki I just don't get. There's a lot of things that could make that character annoying, though. Or maybe she's a lot better than America thinks she is. If you watch Konan and Kuresu, it would certainly seem that way. But yeah, Tsubaki is actually a good example of ASW having a weird/bad mentality on tuning their characters. During Extend, when she had lackluster pressure, an overly nerfed 5B, and considerably worse proration on her D attacks, what was it Mori said to people who played her? "lol, just use 214214D more." Because yeah, one super is suddenly enough to make an otherwise weak character strong, so it makes total sense to base your strategy around that.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 the correct answer is that arc think she's a lot better than she is. Tsubaki players are pretty famous for whining about their character in Japan too. But it's also true, She's B in every tier list since CP hit except the ones where people put her at C (Though mostly that is the dan ranking aggregation based ones, cause the top 10 tsubaki players are low dan, with konan/kuresu sitting about 15 dan). The people who really like the character will always complain more when the character is not as good as they think they should be. I should know. And well, she got nerfs in this revision. Here's another thing. Are those nerfs really going to have a huge effect on how she plays? People acting like buffs and nerfs should solely be based on tier lists, which can be very arbitrary things. Hakumen and Azrael are both A tier. Azrael gets nothing but buffs, Hakumen gets nothing but nerfs. This doesn't sound fair, but you really don't hear anyone complaining (except for redsilversnake and Airk ). So because Tsubaki is not as good as players want her to be, she should get nothing but buffs? Looking at the list, it looks like she got two obvious buffs, two obvious nerfs, and one change that seems irrelevant, for now. One of her nerfs (increased SMP on D moves) actually makes sense within the context of how SMP works, even if it might have a slightly negative effect on the character (and really, I doubt it makes that much of a difference). It's more important for the changes to make sense for the character. If a character is pretty much functioning in a way the developers like, then don't expect a whole lot.
D.R.F. Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Her ground fireball got better, but not point Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) 6A can't be Emergency Teched is a buff, albeit a very minor one that mainly deals with people who try to chicken guard their way out of mixups. Again, this is not an obvious or really significant buff, more just a way of enforcing the playstyle that the developers want. They expect you to sit there and deal with her mixup. Same concept for Makoto 6B not being Emergency Techable; it's a way of eliminating an easy way out of a situation that the designers didn't intend for you to be able to do. As a side note, these changes also punish people who are not precise when changing guard, and tend to overshoot to the up back position when switching from a low to high guard. Could be seen as a nice way to reward the player using Tsubaki or Makoto, or it could be seen as a mean way to enforce proper execution when switching guard. Edited February 14, 2014 by TITANIUM BEAST!!!
Sophisticat Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 If anything, I'd be more tempted to whine about Tsubaki than Azrael myself. Tsubaki has got to be one of the most annoying characters to play against in the game. Or maybe it's just the local player. Nerf Tsubaki. :<
Errol Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 The people who really like the character will always complain more when the character is not as good as they think they should be. I should know. Here's another thing. Are those nerfs really going to have a huge effect on how she plays? People acting like buffs and nerfs should solely be based on tier lists, which can be very arbitrary things. Hakumen and Azrael are both A tier. Azrael gets nothing but buffs, Hakumen gets nothing but nerfs. This doesn't sound fair, but you really don't hear anyone complaining (except for redsilversnake and Airk ). So because Tsubaki is not as good as players want her to be, she should get nothing but buffs? Looking at the list, it looks like she got two obvious buffs, two obvious nerfs, and one change that seems irrelevant, for now. One of her nerfs (increased SMP on D moves) actually makes sense within the context of how SMP works, even if it might have a slightly negative effect on the character (and really, I doubt it makes that much of a difference). It's more important for the changes to make sense for the character. If a character is pretty much functioning in a way the developers like, then don't expect a whole lot. I don't expect only buffs. I would've liked something that was significant. They don't make big differences, but I'll explain why what you think are buffs, I think aren't buffs, but mostly nerfs. 6A – Can no longer be Emergency Teched on hit. - Minor buff, on the occasion you get a 6a hit on a backdash or air hit, you aren't fucked. This shouldn't do much for combos - D moves are needed to use any move this slow - and 6C and 6B are priority. 6C – Removed the additional hitstop from a blocking opponent, can now be canceled on block. - Nerf - 6C> JD> JC will be beat easily by all anti-airs, 6C>JD>JA will be beat by strong anti airs and 5a mashing - this as a pressure tool is dead. Cancels are mostly useless - you could cancel if you wanted to with jump cancel cancel before. - You can't autoinput any specials to autoconfirm someone not blocking the move. 6C> Mugen is the big one. Safe way of getting huge damage if they didn't block it automatically, pretty much dead. no safe way to go into a combo on hit anymore. - Biggest possibility is that delay command grab will work ok due to decreased hitstop, and crush trigger. Both will whiff if 6c was barriered I believe. Barrier tsubaki out. Got nothing to stop it. Judgement Technique – Darkness Piercing Light – Command is now 421A or 421D. The projectile speed of the A version is now faster. - The command change is nice due to all the random projectiles we got trying to punish before. But the projectile speed is questionable. It will probably make it harder to run after it, but most important to me, is that it will probably destroy tsubaki's projectile Oki with it. Unless we see jins using 236a on oki. Haven't seen that before. All Macto Maledictis D Attacks – Strengthened the Same Move Proration for all attacks. - I guess this doesn't need explaining. Significant damage nerf. Overdrive D Version Confutatis Maledictis – Now has a different animation after it hits and hits the opponent forward. - This is because it let them out of the corner if you didn't kill them. Very minor.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 ...I never said Tsubaki got "mostly buffs". I said she got two obvious buffs (they are minor, but it is pretty obvious these are buffs), two obvious nerfs, and one questionable change. After your post, I can correct the last one to a very minor buff, and the projectile change to "middling" (could be overall buff or nerf, needs to be seen first to determine). So...yeah. I agree that no really significant improvements were made. Like I said, this is probably a case where the developers are happy with how the character performs overall, even if the players aren't, so they're going to maintain the status quo. I just think the whole "my character shouldn't get nerfed, they're low tier!" idea is unrealistic. I realize I just spent the last three or four pages having an argument about how Azrael doesn't need any nerfs, but if he had gotten a couple of nerfs similar to these, I wouldn't be complaining either. People always tend to blow this stuff out of proportion.
Errol Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Didn't think I said you said she got mostly buffs. I'm just saying I think she got two very minor buffs, and 2-3 significant nerfs. They outweigh it. I think it will be worse overall. I don't think it will make a difference in her standing. And mostly I'm just saying, Yeah, people, you should know by now how arc wants the characters to play. And if you don't like the strength of tsubaki, don't play her. B/C arc obviously doesn't want her any stronger.
Luminos564 Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 *Yawn* Holy shit, I leave for work for a few hours and this thread explodes. The hell hap... -Patch notes released- Oh, that explains a ton. Guess I'll get to readin'. -One wonderful reading later- Huh, well I'll be damned. Ragna is, looking scarier. D Inferno Divider got real good, while GH and (OD) DS got fixed to not do stupid things. The only bad thing is BE but that can now be finished off with a DD so not a big loss. Azrael is looking better and more importantly, BULLET! Sadly Makoto is still shit (XC). I mean damn, what gives? Did someone at ASW get mauled by squirrels during their mating season and are using this game as a chance at vengeance? Taokaka still gonna be top tier? Well since nobody ever even uses her online this means squat to me. Maybe the offline tourney is gonna be her scratching post but I don't have to worry about that. Can anyone tell me what the stuff for Mu-12 means? Is it good or bad? And if either, how much so?
Makin Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 About AZ, i want to see his backdash nerfed because it wrecks Tager pretty hard. To stop gustaf you only need to throw some punches (depends for each character) on neutral, it usually stuffs the dashing part of the move. Enviado de meu W100 usando Tapatalk
Zeromus_X Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Taokaka still gonna be top tier? Well since nobody ever even uses her online this means squat to me. I must be unlucky, because netplay is a Tao-infested hellscape for me. The Mu changes are pretty minor. She got some minor, but appreciated buffs (CA hitbox, Ikutachi easier to connect) and nerfs on some autopilot things (j2C easier to punish with bigger hurtbox, and DP no longer autoguards from 1F). She should still be really good.
NecroTheReaper Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Mu 12 can essentially be safe-jumped reliably now, not a "scrub got lucky" moment
rayplay Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Reactable overheads are a myth, though. The human brain is terrible at processing things that occur in less than a second, especially with other things to factor in, let alone allowing you to actually do anything fast enough in that timeframe. Then should all overheads just be nerfed to have over 60 frames of startup? Because now it's sounding like you may just need to work on your reactions.
XDest Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Taokaka still gonna be top tier? Well since nobody ever even uses her online this means squat to me. Maybe the offline tourney is gonna be her scratching post but I don't have to worry about that. I have to play you now don't I? Anyways, these changes look pretty nice, looks like the only ones to receive a lot of changes were the console characters, as expected.
mAc Chaos Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 I have to play you now don't I? Anyways, these changes look pretty nice, looks like the only ones to receive a lot of changes were the console characters, as expected. Tao keeps espacing the hammer of justice. What dirt do you have on ArcSys.
Zeromus_X Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Mu 12 can essentially be safe-jumped reliably now, not a "scrub got lucky" moment Not that I don't agree with the change, but if you're trying to safejump something that cannot be safejumped why are they the ones "getting lucky"? Another thing that's unknown is how the backdash/negative penalty will affect her. I wouldn't be opposed to less negative penalty resistance, since you can go ham with backdash/IAD back with little concern in this version. As long as it's not like P4A..."you backdashed 2 times? NEGATIVE PENALTY"
STenSatsu Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 If you watch Konan and Kuresu, it would certainly seem that way. But yeah, Tsubaki is actually a good example of ASW having a weird/bad mentality on tuning their characters. During Extend, when she had lackluster pressure, an overly nerfed 5B, and considerably worse proration on her D attacks, what was it Mori said to people who played her? "lol, just use 214214D more." Because yeah, one super is suddenly enough to make an otherwise weak character strong, so it makes total sense to base your strategy around that. To be fair, 214214d super ended up being key for her to actually deal damage in CS1 and yet basically nobody used it. (Then again nobody used Tsubaki so ya lol.) The only nerf it looks like she got is Install SMP which is probably just because of that dumb fireball>charge>repeat combo. I imagine it is more made to make SMP matter and I doubt there aren't better combos out there that don't involve heavy SMP use.
Luminos564 Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) I have to play you now don't I? Feel free to bring it on in March pussycat . It'll be a welcome change to my Extend experience, where it seems all I ever did was fight Ragna, Jin and Lamb-chops. I need some fuckin' variety. Course, I'm kinda without a main at the moment so I need to pick carefully this time. Haku-men's likely to be in his CS2 tier place at best, CT tier at worst so that's out. I hear Bullet and Azrael are getting better though... And I re-read Mu-12 after people explained it. Honestly, even if Origins is not armored all the way through, the invincible start-up should help it serve as a "get off me" tool. But I guess we will see. Edited February 14, 2014 by Luminos564
Errol Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 To be fair, 214214d super ended up being key for her to actually deal damage in CS1 and yet basically nobody used it. (Then again nobody used Tsubaki so ya lol.) The only nerf it looks like she got is Install SMP which is probably just because of that dumb fireball>charge>repeat combo. I imagine it is more made to make SMP matter and I doubt there aren't better combos out there that don't involve heavy SMP use. Sometimes don't know why I post or even read here. I guess when I question it the most is when I read people telling me that a character I have played a lot wasn't really nerfed, and that one thing that is a nerf, actually isn't because you wouldn't do it if you learned a real combo anyway. I would get it if I didn't just explain how things were nerfed in detail. But you know. Whatever.
Dark Ranger88 Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Mu 12 can essentially be safe-jumped reliably now, not a "scrub got lucky" moment I'm curious as to when her guardpoint kicks in. it definitely matters, because it will determine if she can still beat meaty ground attacks on wakeup. Right now her DP's startup is 14 frames. If the guardpoint takes like 4 or more frames to kick in then most people can option select her DP if they don't have access to a safejump setup. Also I wonder if planner/developer hate actually does lead them to make some characters terrible. If that's the case I'm going to hire a bunch of prostitutes, dress them up like Makoto, and have them visit everyone on the Project BB Team (female members will get male prostitutes, etc.). Important members will get multiple "visitors." It would also make for some interesting work conversation the day after.
Lucalibur Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 "Wow! The fans sure love the job we're doing with Makoto as of lately! Let's keep it up, guys! Next on the list is to remove orb oki, right?"
NecroTheReaper Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 I only said it that way because some people said if timed correctly, some moves could safejump mu-12s dp. Don't know who, dont know what move, so I just stuck with the posibility that maybe its possible lol
Luminos564 Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 It would also make for some interesting work conversation the day after. ASW Employee#456: Ugh shit man, I caught some nasty crabs from that hooker last night. ASW Employee#223: Was she dressed as Makoto? ASW Employee#456: Yeah how'd you know? ASW Employee#223: I had the same one. Let's nerf her to oblivion in BB4. ASW Employee#456: So continue what we were planning to do anyway? Mori: GUYS! Hurry! We need an emergency staff meeting on which girl will get a larger chest cavity. By the way, is it me or did Kagura get his C moves a lot worse as opposed to better like what early reports have been saying?
Recommended Posts