NecroTheReaper Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 I kinda get it, but I'll go ahead and ask anyway lol. Would the DD change be a buff or a nerf despite how minor it may be.
TheArm05 Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 Technically a nerf in that they can recover (a tiny bit) of burst during the difference. It is so incredibly insignificant though. It isn't like this is new anyway. Particle Flare, Daifunka + many others already hold off the death until last hit. It is for dramatic effect.
Daedron Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 I'm confused on the Azrael backdash line, when it says it's adding 2 frames of duration does it mean 2 more recovery frames? It's absurd as it is now, they can backdash in the corner with pretty much total impunity and I have to commit to pretty unsafe stuff if I want to call it out. That's what it means, disappointing right? Yeah, thought so. #Arcsysfun.
bakahyl Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 Eventhough the Mu changes are not completely revealed yet, i am taking a wild guess and see our negative penalty resistence getting nerfed badly. It was basically nearly impossible to get negative penalty because Mu and Nu have now the highest resistence in the game
Airk Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 I'm legitimately curious: why do you disagree with Relius having a good backdash? That's not how the question works. The correct question is "Why does Relius deserve a backdash that is barely more than half the commitment of most characters (only 13 frame duration vs 20 for 'average'), but with significantly more invulnerability?" Relius has monstrous neutral and several reversal options already. There is no reason for his backdash to be leaps and bounds better than most of the rest of the cast - the short duration, with over half the time invulnerable, makes it a ridiculously good option.
NecroTheReaper Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 You make it sound like without his admittedly good backstep, he'd have good defense. In which case I would reply LOL. Twirl lasts too long for its own good of you're being pressured, because if it doesn't get grab punished, it gets CH'd or puts him right back on defense after. You won't see many high ranking Relius players using Ley at all on defense. And reversal DD is beaten by just... so many things I can't name. it gives you decent reward on standing hit with UB setups, but typically people notice you have 50 heat and just stay to the air. Relius didn't get anything in CP that makes him godlike to how he was in Ex. He's higher tier, but the issue was they made everyone else that was good... crap lol. Btw, I'm not sayin he needed an OP backstep, but saying he has "plenty of reversal options" isn't really an argument either. He's got a large hitbox, mediocre AA, slow short range pokes, twirl, and short range DD. Also, personal issue of mine, his reversal DD got an awful nerf from Ex in which its a 23663214 motion which I find impossible to do on defense. Gimme tips bang players xD
Errol Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 I've never been able to backdash punish someone's 5A as Relius, but I feel that was more or less an exaggeration. Also, Relius doesn't have good normals for poking out of pressure with their short range and slower startup. Not sayin 7 frames is typically slow, but still. And idk baka, Relius' Tedo isnt RCable until after the last hit anyway. no, it's not an exaggeration. And are you kidding me. Relius' 5b is arguably the strongest 5b in the game, with massive range and a super fast startup. and his 2a is 7f, pretty much same as everyone else. And his throw is an absurd reward for something you can do of a backstep. backdashing a 5a and getting a counter hit throw is utterly ridiculous.
NecroTheReaper Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 His backdash gets beaten by A mash just like everyone elses. Just cuz it was used to call out a move into a reversal grab doesn't really say much about the backdash itself. 2A>2A on wakeup backstep beats grab, which beats his other options outside of using reversal DP
Zouf Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 His dodge move is relatively good. Kinda like Kokonoe's TP. I'm not really happy with all the backdash nerfs. Of course some backdashes were way too broken, but some characters are getting nerfed when their backdash was already utter trash (Hello Tsubaki) These random nerfs/buffs aren't balancing anything imo. Either way, am I the only one noticing all the buffs on Azrael when he was already pretty strong? Do they want him to be the next top tier or something?
zankoku Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) His backdash gets beaten by A mash just like everyone elses. Just cuz it was used to call out a move into a reversal grab doesn't really say much about the backdash itself. 2A>2A on wakeup backstep beats grab, which beats his other options outside of using reversal DP Ragna's 5A is 5f startup, 3f active, 9f recovery, making it 17f duration. If the 5A became active on 6f or 7f of Relius' backstep, it would hit. Whiffing on 4f or 5f would leave Ragna - on whiff (-1 or -2). Whiffing on 3f would result in being neutral. Whiffing on 1-2f would leave Ragna +1-2f. The only times 5A mash would actually "beat" backstep are if you 5A'd during the final two frames of backstep invuln, or if you 5A'd when the invuln was over. Whiffing on any of the first five of the 7 frames of invuln would at best leave you +2 and at worst leave you -2. I actually find the -2 particularly hilarious because it means if you got the worst possible timing, 5A > 5A would lose to backstep > throw. Edited March 11, 2014 by aisight
Verimeloni Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 backdashing a 5a and getting a counter hit throw is utterly ridiculous. Tager much?
NecroTheReaper Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 But the majority of the casts 2/5As are wiff cancellable into themselves. If you go 5A>5A thats a total duration of 13 frames before actives kick in, just enough to put him back under pressure. Plus this isn't taking into consideration when the actives start if you meaty a jab. Btw, I'm not for or against backdash nerfs, it just happened. I'm only arguing the point that people are like "Relius has defense options already" when all of them are both easily baited AND easily punishable.
D.R.F. Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 His dodge move is relatively good. Kinda like Kokonoe's TP. I'm not really happy with all the backdash nerfs. Of course some backdashes were way too broken, but some characters are getting nerfed when their backdash was already utter trash (Hello Tsubaki) These random nerfs/buffs aren't balancing anything imo. Either way, am I the only one noticing all the buffs on Azrael when he was already pretty strong? Do they want him to be the next top tier or something? Well universal avg. backdash is now 22 frames, so you cannot backdash everything anymore (couldn't do that anyway when your backdash had 5 invul frames, but whatever) and relius gtfo options, while not the best, are still applicable enough and his strengths are still good enough to say that his backdash should be normalized. (You can always block too, so defense training go!) Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Errol Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 His backdash gets beaten by A mash just like everyone elses. Just cuz it was used to call out a move into a reversal grab doesn't really say much about the backdash itself. 2A>2A on wakeup backstep beats grab, which beats his other options outside of using reversal DP Consider for a sec what it means to require people to use A mashing. The timing is too tight to do anything on reaction. So you are requiring people to get combos for like 1.3k in the event that the backdash is actually punished. same crap damage if you caught relius upbacking during wakeup. The risk is super low and the reward is super high. twirl is bad but having both backdash and twirl presents a bit of a mixup situation between all his defensive options. And that's just on wakeup, the absolute riskiest time to be doing this. if you actually block and mash backstep during pressure, it's worse. DPs bear a much higher risk and don't have the same level of reward as this backdash. this is the exact same type of change that the air unblockable change was.
mAc Chaos Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 Tager much? That's pretty much his character though. That and you have plenty of time to just 5A mash him out of the backdash anyway if you don't walk right into it.
NecroTheReaper Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 I've never seen a situation though where someone went for just 1 2/5A on wakeup though. I usually only see that on meaty grab setups. Also, the range for a lot of characters 2A mash outranges Relius' grab now because of that universal grab nerf in CP. I guess what my biggest problem is on wakeup, your objective is to use an option that beats the option of the person waking up performs. Also, with bringing up the twirl, both backstep and twirl are beaten in the same way, just twirl is a longer, riskier version. I've seen 2Ax2>xx CH twirl, so its the same concept.
TheArm05 Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) I agree with Errol. Backdashing carries such little risk to it. Hell you aren't even CH state during them at any point so some moves that should blow them up (Azrael 3D) end up being minor punishes. Backdashing on wakeup in the corner should logically never be an option yet I get away with backdash > 5A all the time as Azrael. Koko mashes backdash on every wakeup and a good percentage of the time I pick a move to try to beat it she recovers and can block or the invuln ignores it. Honestly though there are so many characters who have such absurdly strong mixup/pressure that I fear the removal of even more defensive tools. It is a careful balance really. Edited March 11, 2014 by TheArm05
Errol Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) That's pretty much his character though. That and you have plenty of time to just 5A mash him out of the backdash anyway if you don't walk right into it. Yup. 5a>5b to OS a backdash is universal except for relius and valk. You got plenty of time to punish tager's backdash if you whiff a 5a. with those characters you have to hard mash 5a and you get almost no damage whether they backdashed, or not. At least valk only has 5f of invuln so you can use a big move to deal with it on wakeup. But still too good. These really short backdashes are also absurdly good in neutral. Edited March 11, 2014 by Errol
Airk Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 You make it sound like without his admittedly good backstep, he'd have good defense. No, I'm saying he's a character who is SUPPOSED to have bad defense, so why should he get a super good option compared to the rest of the cast?
NecroTheReaper Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 There's other characters that have bad defense but really good options. I mean take a look at Tao's Crawl xD except like ALL of the S tier characters are movement based, so they have an easier time getting out of the corner than Relius.
Airk Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 There's other characters that have bad defense but really good options. I mean take a look at Tao's Crawl xD except like ALL of the S tier characters are movement based, so they have an easier time getting out of the corner than Relius. Sorry, did we drop Litchi from the list of top tier characters now?
Errol Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 hakumen's 6d moves him forward in cp1.1. Dumb movement-drive S tier characters
NecroTheReaper Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) I don't see what that has to do with anything lol. Because I left her out when 3/4 top tier characters are all movement based (for sake of playability, I'm excluding Koko), seems like a funny point to make. Though, she's also the only one of the top tiers with a meterless DP. I mean really, what is Litchi BAD at? Defense: good A's, a DP, and a good backstep Offense: lots of pressure and mixup attempts. Neutral: take the stick out. Still has more to worry about than Relius. Relius being good has to do with half the cast being bad, not because he's got his backstep. I'll deal with the nerf, I could honestly care less since I never started using it until like the past 3 months FOR SAKE OF WHAT I'M SAYING: Top tier I'm only using Haz, Tao, Litchi, and Valk. TThey're who I feel are "best of the best" with Jin, Haku, and Relius below them. Tjis is subjective though, everyone thinks differently Edited March 11, 2014 by NecroTheReaper
Elochai Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 snip This post is actually pretty good, honestly. Puts the whole backdash thing into perspective. I would've never thought to compare it to up-backing, but there's a completely legitimate parallel there. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Skye Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 I think Azrael does have bad defense, or at least average defense. A characters defensive worth, imo comes from 2 factors; How many defensive options they have available? How good are said defensive options? All Azrael has is a really good backdash and an ok reversal. The reversal isn't a huge issue and is actually negative on hit. His backdash although good, can be baited, and some characters can OS both. Judy takes some thinking. Although it's a tighter window, you can punish Azrael's backdash the same way you punish Arakune's. Not saying it's free, but it has blind spots, enough to take advantage of.
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