Luminos564 Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 To prevent this from going off-topic I'm gonna bring up something that has been bugging me: in one of the latest matches that Elochai posted, a Lizzie player faced off against an Aigis. Apparently, Maziodyne can no longer hit Aigis out of her rocket launcher special. You can see it here. I dunno about you but I find this to be utterly bonkers considering that if this were P4A, Aigis would be eating a fist full'o loitnin. I know, I know, the rockets traded hit but this is still something that makes me wanna .
Luminos564 Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 I don't know what that's all about outside of wagering a guess it has something to do with Lizzie being unable to fully summon Thanatos in battle since it keeps getting destroyed (the katakana for him gets cut off in the 2nd panel). There's also Chie spamming Tomoe-copter in the 3rd one.
Elochai Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 To prevent this from going off-topic I'm gonna bring up something that has been bugging me: in one of the latest matches that Elochai posted, a Lizzie player faced off against an Aigis. Apparently, Maziodyne can no longer hit Aigis out of her rocket launcher special. You can see it here. I dunno about you but I find this to be utterly bonkers considering that if this were P4A, Aigis would be eating a fist full'o loitnin. I know, I know, the rockets traded hit but this is still something that makes me wanna . Pandora Launcher has projectile invul on start up in P4U2, which is why that happened. Dunno why it was added to the game either. Btw, Chie can low profile 236A.
Luminos564 Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Pandora Launcher has projectile invul on start up in P4U2, which is why that happened. Dunno why it was added to the game either. Because ASW decided that Lizzie should get the Extend Makoto treatment and be so utterly, completely bad that it would take a miracle just to win. "Hey," said ASW, "remember that slow as hell missile launcher Aigis has that you normally could snipe out with a single move? Well tough shit mucklucks, you now can't hit her out of it at all. Have a nice day". Btw, Chie can low profile 236A. Ow. I'm not joking. Looking at that actually causes me intense pain and fury.
OmnixTSC Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Btw, Chie can low profile 236A. This would be fair if Liz wasn't utter garbage in this game. The Aigis MU is going to be worse now if we can't Agi or Zio missiles on reaction. Even if we have to trade with her by punishing the recovery on it, that's fine. It allows her to get in for free at fullscreen if we can't do either of these, though. I guess we can just jump into the air and block or Garu since she can't AUB us, but she does have that command grab, so...
Elochai Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Randomizer counters projectiles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdJF_BLHDXs#t=3541 I guess we can just Randomizer missile attempts for free? I wonder if Aigis would still be in recovery.
Luminos564 Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Randomizer counters projectiles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdJF_BLHDXs#t=3541 I guess we can just Randomizer missile attempts for free? I wonder if Aigis would still be in recovery. I wonder. It sounds like Randomizer/Debilitate should override the missiles but then again, Lizzie's own COUNTER Mortal Blow can miss even when activated so who knows at this point. If nothing else Radomizer is at least proving to be an effective WTF move since nobody seems to expect it. Too bad there isn't enough data to go around for it. Then again, we will know when we test it out ourselves on consoles.
Elochai Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 222CD doesn't kill only if the opponent returns to neutral iirc (like if Naoto does 236236A OMC > nothing, then 222CD wouldn't work). Dunno if it got changed. I have some ideas for Randomizer. I think something like 2C > 236 > [6]4A > ]B[ seems plausible; to catch reversals and stuff on wakeup + allowing Liz to be totally safe. No idea if this would actually work though.
OmnixTSC Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 I'm slowly but surely working on the frame data for Liz, guys. I should hopefully be finished later tonight (if I'd stop playing BBCP all day).
Luminos564 Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 I'm slowly but surely working on the frame data for Liz, guys. I should hopefully be finished later tonight (if I'd stop playing BBCP all day). Aww no need to feel rushed. Take your time. We appreciate all your work nonetheless.
OmnixTSC Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Aww no need to feel rushed. Take your time. We appreciate all your work nonetheless. Nah, I'm not rushing. Almost finished, actually. And by almost I mean I'm still filling in stuff
OmnixTSC Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Well, it sure took me long enough. I finished updating the wiki with the information in the mook, so here it is at last. Don't hold your breath, guys (P4AU) Elizabeth Frame Data Edit: Oh, before I forget...be sure to bug me if I messed something up so I can go fix it! There was so much information that I had to change/add that I might have messed up somewhere. Hopefully I didn't, though.
Elochai Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) So 5B is worse on whiff? Why is that a thing? It got like 20 or so additional frames of recovery. If you whiff, I guess you die, harder. Rip 5D, too (though the P2 is nice, kinda wonder what combos we can do). Kinda odd that jD got faster, but it has lower range anyway. Does Randomizer have 0f start up, or is it just not listed in the mook? Not glad that my speculation about stuff > dp beating this move is true. Wonder if you can just OS and hit a super or something. Also, lol at 5C (2) jump cancel. That's really weird to me (is this the same as hop cancel?). I guess we'll be going for 5C > jc jB > jA > jC > stuff . Generally speaking, I'm kinda...surprised? Part of me wants to ask "why?" at a bunch of this stuff. I mean, at least we have awakening specials? They look nice. Edit: forgot to mention that 2C applies its buff even on block. That's kinda cool. (rip, my darling) Edited March 20, 2014 by Elochai Luminos564 1
Luminos564 Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 So 5B is worse on whiff? Why is that a thing? It got like 20 or so additional frames of recovery. If you whiff, I guess you die, harder. Rip 5D, too (though the P2 is nice, kinda wonder what combos we can do). Kinda odd that jD got faster, but it has lower range anyway. Yeah I'm surprised as well. I thought 5B was supposed to have been buffed in this version, not nerfed. Or was that just in one of the loketests? As for the 5D/JD, I'm guessing it is now like that since they can grab frozen opponents. Well, at least JD can. 5D comes out too slow for that honor. Which wouldn't be a bad thing if they didn't make Mabufudyne suck so much. Does Randomizer have 0f start up, or is it just not listed in the mook? Not glad that my speculation about stuff > dp beating this move is true. Wonder if you can just OS and hit a super or something. And the move just continues to suck. Well on paper anyway. I still would like to know if doing 3AB>Randomizer could be a benefit. But considering how low-level skill the idea is and that no JPN player is using it, I doubt it. Edit: forgot to mention that 2C applies its buff even on block. That's kinda cool. It applies it on whiff IIRC as well. At least, I know it did in P4A. Dunno if they changed that in P4U2 and I am hoping they didn't. It's one of her few saving grace perks. (rip, my darling) Aw geez now you're making me cry. But yeah, farewell Lizzie (T_T)7. Unless of course someone at ASW decides to get off their bum and do some major re-tweaking before the console release.
RurouniLoneWolf Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Does Randomizer have 0f start up, or is it just not listed in the mook? Not glad that my speculation about stuff > dp beating this move is true. Wonder if you can just OS and hit a super or something. Taking a quick look at the data, I think the labeling for the entries is backwards. Everything listed as counter should be catch and the catch row should be labelled counter attack. In which case, the counter attack's start up is 1f. With 1f of start up, it's possible to do normal > DP if you auto-pilot the input but I can't really see anyone doing it on reaction like they do for Labrys DP.
OmnixTSC Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Taking a quick look at the data, I think the labeling for the entries is backwards. Everything listed as counter should be catch and the catch row should be labelled counter attack. In which case, the counter attack's start up is 1f. With 1f of start up, it's possible to do normal > DP if you auto-pilot the input but I can't really see anyone doing it on reaction like they do for Labrys DP. I guess in my mind I thought that the part that actually "catches" the opponent should be the one labeled as such. I couldn't really figure out how I wanted to label it all b/c there was nothing in the mook for the the part where Debilatate/IK activates, just for the part that counters them (aka the first part). The other part just said the name of the move, so I defaulted that to the catch portion Do you guys notice anything else that seems odd? Question anything and everything in that wiki for me, please.
OmnixTSC Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Does Randomizer have 0f start up, or is it just not listed in the mook? Not glad that my speculation about stuff > dp beating this move is true. Wonder if you can just OS and hit a super or something. No start-up information was in the mook, so I just left it blank. We know that stuff > DP will beat it, but we don't know how much time you have to actually DP before you get captured or if DP will even whiff in some situations and get punished (though Debilitate has a good bit of recovery, lol).
Elochai Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 I think the DP timing point is a valid argument. It seems that the catch is fast, though I cannot eyeball it exactly (despite the fact that you can replay YT videos at 1/4th speed). I would almost wager that from when Nonono hit jB, he was caught within 1f, but I cannot say for certain. This is why I brought up OSing, though I do not think that there are any OSes that deal with guardpoint.
OmnixTSC Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Am I allowed to post "RIP Liz" again? After playing you on netplay today...yes, yes you are.
RurouniLoneWolf Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 I guess in my mind I thought that the part that actually "catches" the opponent should be the one labeled as such. I couldn't really figure out how I wanted to label it all b/c there was nothing in the mook for the the part where Debilatate/IK activates, just for the part that counters them (aka the first part). The other part just said the name of the move, so I defaulted that to the catch portion I don't think there's anything wrong with the particular way that you have it/the way that you think about it. It's just that Chie, Yosuke and Teddie's DP have the first part listed as catch and the second part as attack already, making the way you have it now "the odd man out" sort of, lol. It's interesting that the data on the attack portion is missing though. I wonder why ASW didn't put it in. I think the DP timing point is a valid argument. It seems that the catch is fast, though I cannot eyeball it exactly (despite the fact that you can replay YT videos at 1/4th speed). I would almost wager that from when Nonono hit jB, he was caught within 1f, but I cannot say for certain. This is why I brought up OSing, though I do not think that there are any OSes that deal with guardpoint. I also want to say the start up is pretty quick from what I saw but can't be sure. Guess you guys will just have to test it out when the game releases on consoles.
TheArm05 Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 I can't believe how hard they nerfed Mind Charge. Why build the character around awakening then nerf Mind Charge? I guess hoping for a full invuln Mind Charge buff may have been a little much but no blue life when using the equivalent of the current version is absurd. Even Ex Mind Charge has shit startup. Man if we could have just got 2C charge. j.C CH groundbounce, and 5C BD cancel with current Liz we would have been (at least somewhat) in there. I'm going to the Narukami army btw. I am done trying hard in Persona. I will still give Liz a shot but I know I am going to hate it when I actually try to pull together a combo from all her destroyed combo routes.
Elochai Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 P4U2's 236236A is the same as 236236A in P4U, but there is no blue health (and thusly, no health regen). 236236B/AB starts up 6f slower than A, and B/AB both have considerable recovery. The invul on any version of Mind Charge isn't even that good, all things considered.
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