[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Strife]

I know it's a bit early to be asking this, since the patch isn't live yet, but I'd like to ask some of the better Liz players here, like Bace, Omnix, and Elochai, do you think these buffs, small as they may be, will leave her better, the same, or still worse than she currently is in P4A?  She'll still have problems, but they fixed a few things it seems.

 

Oh yeah, I have a question regarding the changes too. Can anyone explain the Maragidyne buff? "Thanatos will come back to Liz after the move", what difference does it make?

 

A friend of mine that plays Liz said that when you end a combo with j.C and go for Maragidyne, Thanatos will use the move where he used j.C. He said that this buff will fix that and make Thanatos use the move behind Liz. Is that correct?

Edited April 20, 2014 by Strife

[Elochai]

Oh yeah, I have a question regarding the changes too. Can anyone explain the Maragidyne buff? "Thanatos will come back to Liz after the move", what difference does it make?

A friend of mine that plays Liz said that when you end a combo with j.C and go for Maragidyne, Thanatos will use the move where he used j.C. He said that this buff will fix that and make Thanatos use the move behind Liz. Is that correct?

Can't multiquote on my phone, so I guess this will suffice:

Based solely on the wording of the translation, it would mean that only after maragidyne is completed will Thanatos return to Elizabeth. jC > same spot maragidyne should still be possible. What wouldn't be possible is something like xx > omb > maragidyne > aerial hama (since omb raises Thanatos slightly in the air). It's not a big difference imo (I could also be wrong and the change means that Thanatos doesn't linger after he throws the flames).

In regards to RWA's query, I don't think anything will change much for Elizabeth. She's just (assumingly) getting her damage back. Nothing about her ability to play neutral changes, and, at least in my opinion, that's where her problems are. It will be easier for her to win though, since she'll need to hit the opponent less. Regardless, I'll reserve total judgement until I see the patch in action.

As an aside, 214AB > tk.236AB has been confirmed for being the baller combo route.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Dazardz]

Came back to this thread and read some stuff. If she is getting her damage back, I'm pretty happy. Don't want to forget the times where I made huge comebacks with this character due to her huge damage off of one solid corner hit. It's fun to do.

 

That IS if she is getting her damage back.

 

 

Wait wha? When was there a combo like that!? 0_0 Does it require the garu trick (please let it not be)!? TEACH ME YOUR WAYS SENPAI! (Because the closest to that damage I can get with Lizz is a combo kinda like the one you see in Challenge 31 which I just recently completed btw. My life is now complete... <3)

 

I don't really know how quotes work on this new boards so like, GBAer, learn the Garu route on every character. It gets harder to do on netplay too, but once you've done it, a new joy that you have never before experienced overtakes you.

[OmnixTSC]

I don't really know how quotes work on this new boards so like, GBAer, learn the Garu route on every character. It gets harder to do on netplay too, but once you've done it, a new joy that you have never before experienced overtakes you.

 

It's only harder on netplay against Chie, honestly. Maybe that's just me? Even then, I don't drop loops on Chie unless I'm just out of practice or the connection is bad.

 

Humorously enough, my friends and I laugh when I play Liz. It's sometimes, "Man, I got robbed by Liz that game," on their side or, "I totally stole that game from you with Liz being dumb, " from my side. I recall both of these being dropped at least 2-3 times each when I streamed yesterday. It's rare for me to have to make a come back on damage, though. Most of the time, one person gets outplayed or just loses out on the exchanges instead of me just riding Liz's damage to the top. Liz's oki being silly helps, too.

 

With that being said, I feel like we could possibly have the same problem that we had in P4U player-wise depending on how her damage or combos were buffed. We have damage to overshadow our faults. "I don't really need to fix my neutral or button placement when I can land one hit and potentially win the round." I honestly don't think it'll come to that as I don't think they want our damage to be THAT high. Even if the damage is substantial enough, players are going to have to get past that allusion to Liz only having damage.

 

I feel that at least with the post-patch version of Liz, players will be more prepared to not rely solely on damage and will be able to grow more which is what we need for her to be played at a high level anyways. At the end of the day, though, it's up to the players. I could just be preaching to the choir

 

Edit: The Liz that was linked most recently in the video thread (thank you Elochai) is impressive. We need more players like this. Patient enough, knows how to confirm pretty well, and utilizes her tools in neutral (though he/she does seem to not use Agi much). Those reads were pretty good, too. Kudos to this player for doing well and learning the stuff Liz does have.

[Luminos564]

The Liz that was linked most recently in the video thread (thank you Elochai) is impressive. We need more players like this. Patient enough, knows how to confirm pretty well, and utilizes her tools in neutral (though he/she does seem to not use Agi much). Those reads were pretty good, too. Kudos to this player for doing well and learning the stuff Liz does have.

 

I agree. Granted most of his/her fights ended in losses but considering they were up against pretty high-up characters, I don't hold it against them. Matter of fact, they could have won the Yosuke match with Megidolaon (IK) had their read been slightly more on point (that Yosuke was very kunai-happy which I am betting the Lizzie was banking on). Too bad it didn't work out (damn Yosuke decided to be more random right then) considering that'd have been the first time I'd seen Megidolaon pulled off at the JPN arcades. At least he beat the tar out of Teddie I will not rest until I see that character wiped from the roster like excrement from a boot, which made me very happy.

 

Small point since this will likely matter even for version 1.10 but, I thought it was mentioned that SB Ghastly Wail could not catch point blank opponents. Yet in these sets of videos, the Lizzie definitely was point blank against Teddie and definitely caught him with it. Not that I am complaining. Lizzie needs all the help she can get. Though, I wonder if SB Ghastly Wail has some interesting properties. In one of the older vs. Mitsuru matches I noticed that SB Ghastly Wail caught Mitsuru after she hop-cancelled one of her moves and was definitely off the ground. That made me wish someone could do Aerial Throw>OMC>SB Ghastly Wail but I guess it isn't possible.

[OmnixTSC]

I agree. Granted most of his/her fights ended in losses but considering they were up against pretty high-up characters, I don't hold it against them. 

 

Considering arguably 3 of those matches were bad matchups, I think he did okay (he beat the Teddie at least)

 

 

That made me wish someone could do Aerial Throw>OMC>SB Ghastly Wail but I guess it isn't possible.

 

I'm not sure Liz would ever have the meter for that in this version. Just going for a combo after the air throw would probably be more beneficial unless the Wail flat out killed them. Too bad we can't use just frame sweep > D Garu anymore after a CH/FC air throw pre-patch, though. Might be able to have an actual combo off of it post-patch

[Eshi]

I'm really late to the party but if those are the only patch notes then I'm 100% sure Liz will still be bottom tier, even with D garu loops. They just gave something back that never should've been taking away (like Labrys starting with green axe). Not to say that there's no chance of Liz getting better, Amane got tons of unlisted buffs that are ridiculously gross so it could happen here too.  I just won't be getting my hopes up. 

[OmnixTSC]

I'm really late to the party but if those are the only patch notes then I'm 100% sure Liz will still be bottom tier, even with D garu loops. They just gave something back that never should've been taking away (like Labrys starting with green axe).

 

The problem with her tier placement is mostly b/c of her 3 bad MUs that got slightly worse/better (still all look 7-3 to me). Other than that, she's fine tier-wise.

 

As for D Garu...it made sense for her to lose D Garu loops. They're silly and do too much damage off of the worst starters in P4A (you can go into loops meterless off of a 5A starter with or without a crouching confirm). The problem is that when they took away Liz's damage, they didn't actually "fix" her. She had combos without the loops, they just took some meter unlike the loops which could be entirely meterless, give you 4-6k, and still let you have some kind of oki. It's something that was unnecessary and silly. I wouldn't want those back if I had a choice.

 

As for Labrys, that was actually something she NEEDED. Axe meter is vital to her everything, so starting with none of it when it's already difficult enough to maintain said meter in a lot of matchups is absurd.

[Luminos564]

I'm really late to the party but if those are the only patch notes then I'm 100% sure Liz will still be bottom tier, even with D garu loops. They just gave something back that never should've been taking away (like Labrys starting with green axe). Not to say that there's no chance of Liz getting better, Amane got tons of unlisted buffs that are ridiculously gross so it could happen here too.  I just won't be getting my hopes up. 

 

Why must you crush my dreams? *Sigh* Well, so much for being optimistic I guess. Then again, it's probably better this way. If I get too excited I might get too blind to notice simple facts.

 

Considering arguably 3 of those matches were bad matchups, I think he did okay (he beat the Teddie at least)

 

Hey I agreed with that though. Honestly, when you're bottom of the barrel, you pretty much pray for at least putting up a decent fight before being snuffed out.

 

I'm not sure Liz would ever have the meter for that in this version. Just going for a combo after the air throw would probably be more beneficial unless the Wail flat out killed them. Too bad we can't use just frame sweep > D Garu anymore after a CH/FC air throw pre-patch, though. Might be able to have an actual combo off of it post-patch 

 

It's 125 meter total (not that unlikely) and I know some players will OMC the ground throw when close to the corner for that one. I was mostly thinking of how cool it would be to actually see it, though it also could a fine kill strategy if Lizzie's opponent is not under Fear and you have the 2C buff. Activate air throw (instill Fear)>OMC>SB Wail for increased damage. Granted I don't know what the proration is for the throws but there you go.

 

And to reiterate, the combo (likely) CANNOT BE DONE. I just kinda wish you COULD do it.

[Eshi]

 

As for D Garu...it made sense for her to lose D Garu loops. They're silly and do too much damage off of the worst starters in P4A (you can go into loops meterless off of a 5A starter with or without a crouching confirm). The problem is that when they took away Liz's damage, they didn't actually "fix" her. She had combos without the loops, they just took some meter unlike the loops which could be entirely meterless, give you 4-6k, and still let you have some kind of oki. It's something that was unnecessary and silly. I wouldn't want those back if I had a choice.

I would argue that Liz absolutely needed the damage. P4U is a very high damage game, even moreso in this version. Getting rid of Garu loops sent Elizabeth's output straight to the bottom. Every strong character is capable of putting out damage comparable to original Liz. 

If they actually buffed Liz's tools, gave Garudyne meaningful SMP while returning its ability to actually combo AT ALL... I would definitely be content with that. Basically she needs both competitive tools and competitive damage, right now she has neither.

[TheArm05]

I really liked the Garu loops in P4A1.  Garu loops were some of the few Liz combos that were actually difficult and hitting double and triple Garu combos was soooo satisfying.  I am pretty biased though because I spent more time practicing garu loops than anything else in any fighting game lol.

 

Also I don't think Liz's tier placement is solely based on three bad matchups.  Liz's tier placement is based on how incredibly risky and volatile her playstyle is.

 

Liz's neutral boils down to this most of the time.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and they get hit = praise Jesus.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and they block = ok.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and it whiffs = Massive catastrophe.

 

This inconsistency combined with better players being increasingly harder to hit as the game gets older is what makes Liz shit imo. Honestly she has problems against quite a few characters and good players don't get hit by her.  None of that was changed in 1.1 as far as I can tell.

[Elochai]

Liz's neutral boils down to this most of the time.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and they get hit = praise Jesus.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and they block = ok.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and it whiffs = Massive catastrophe.

 

I really, really love this analysis. Good stuff!

In regards to the SB Wail combo, what are the requirements to combo into command grabs in this version? I know that in P4U, the opponent needed to be in spin-state, but I think that was taken out, right? Perhaps you might be able to combo in the corner as one of the earliest hits of a combo (to save 1HSM). 214214C > 5B was possible in P4U at least, so I don't see why stuff > 214214[CD] > 5B > stuff wouldn't work.

[DeathArcana]

I really liked the Garu loops in P4A1.  Garu loops were some of the few Liz combos that were actually difficult and hitting double and triple Garu combos was soooo satisfying.  I am pretty biased though because I spent more time practicing garu loops than anything else in any fighting game lol.

 

Also I don't think Liz's tier placement is solely based on three bad matchups.  Liz's tier placement is based on how incredibly risky and volatile her playstyle is.

 

Liz's neutral boils down to this most of the time.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and they get hit = praise Jesus.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and they block = ok.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and it whiffs = Massive catastrophe.

 

This inconsistency combined with better players being increasingly harder to hit as the game gets older is what makes Liz shit imo. Honestly she has problems against quite a few characters and good players don't get hit by her.  None of that was changed in 1.1 as far as I can tell.

So wouldn't one of the best things to do at this point be to make her normals have less recovery on whiff?

[GBAer64]

 

I know that in P4U, the opponent needed to be in spin-state, but I think that was taken out, right?

I'm pretty sure they kept that little rule in P4A:TUSH too...

 

Hey I agreed with that though. Honestly, when you're bottom of the barrel, you pretty much pray for at least putting up a decent fight before being snuffed out.

You know when it comes down to these chats I end up feeling like some slave to the Mitsuru, Chie, and Narukami players... ._.;; Why must ASW do this to us? It's like an anarchy... er... monarchy? Tyranny? Something where people are in the bottom and the people that aren't us are basically Super Duper High School Lvl is what I mean.

Came back to this thread and read some stuff. If she is getting her damage back, I'm pretty happy. Don't want to forget the times where I made huge comebacks with this character due to her huge damage off of one solid corner hit. It's fun to do.

 

That IS if she is getting her damage back.

 

 

I don't really know how quotes work on this new boards so like, GBAer, learn the Garu route on every character. It gets harder to do on netplay too, but once you've done it, a new joy that you have never before experienced overtakes you.

Oh trust me I know that if I can learn it, it's like nirvana. Just like how I felt when I learned to do the grab route, Maragidyne route, AoA route(s), and the Maziodyne wallstick route.

 

Sad thing though is that I have so much trouble since the garu route is different depending on the character you're against. Trust me, I'd love to learn it (in fact even then I'm trying as we speak) but if doing the garu loop is going to be the hardest on Chie or the others that we have a bad MatchUp with. I don't really know if it's worth it. :/

 

I agree. Granted most of his/her fights ended in losses but considering they were up against pretty high-up characters, I don't hold it against them. Matter of fact, they could have won the Yosuke match with Megidolaon (IK) had their read been slightly more on point (that Yosuke was very kunai-happy which I am betting the Lizzie was banking on). Too bad it didn't work out (damn Yosuke decided to be more random right then) considering that'd have been the first time I'd seen Megidolaon pulled off at the JPN arcades. At least he beat the tar out of Teddie I will not rest until I see that character wiped from the roster like excrement from a boot, which made me very happy.

 

Small point since this will likely matter even for version 1.10 but, I thought it was mentioned that SB Ghastly Wail could not catch point blank opponents. Yet in these sets of videos, the Lizzie definitely was point blank against Teddie and definitely caught him with it. Not that I am complaining. Lizzie needs all the help she can get. Though, I wonder if SB Ghastly Wail has some interesting properties. In one of the older vs. Mitsuru matches I noticed that SB Ghastly Wail caught Mitsuru after she hop-cancelled one of her moves and was definitely off the ground. That made me wish someone could do Aerial Throw>OMC>SB Ghastly Wail but I guess it isn't possible.

Well someone... has... problems with Teddie like me and Chie... 0_0

Yeah I remember that happening in one of the Liz vs. Mitsuru matches too though I thought it was because SB Ghastly Wail "tracked" the opponent or something like that when I saw some of the notes with Liz (during her nerf). I just assumed that the whole "tracking" thing meant that Thany-poo also followed the opponent in a vertical/altitude sense along with a horizontal/distance sense.

 

Might be completely wrong on what I just said with the whole SB heat seeking Ghastly Wail thing though since it was some pretty outdated notes where I saw that...

[Strife]

Liz will be fine guys, I'm feeling it. Have faith in ArcSystemWorks, they know what they're doing.

[Luminos564]

Liz will be fine guys, I'm feeling it. Have faith in ArcSystemWorks, they know what they're doing.

 

That's a mighty tall order chief, considering they were the ones that put her in this predicament to begin with and have not exactly made the best balance possible with P4U2. Added BBCP's very sloppy localization left me with little faith in them as a company, let alone a fighting game developer so asking me to put my faith in them again in regards to Lizzie, my absolute favorite character out of this whole series, is not something I think I can do right now. Not until I see these changes in action anyway.,,

[Zephyrion22]

I really, really love this analysis. Good stuff!

In regards to the SB Wail combo, what are the requirements to combo into command grabs in this version? I know that in P4U, the opponent needed to be in spin-state, but I think that was taken out, right? Perhaps you might be able to combo in the corner as one of the earliest hits of a combo (to save 1HSM). 214214C > 5B was possible in P4U at least, so I don't see why stuff > 214214[CD] > 5B > stuff wouldn't work.

 

You can still combo out of Ghastly wail, and you can still combo into it, it's just that Bufu eats the 2C buff, cutting off a HUGE amount of the damage it deals. Combine that with the fact that you have to use SB Bufu and  Ghastly wail is now useless as a combo ender, as it costs 125 meter for like 500 more damage.

 

For the patch notes,a s I've said earlier Liz won't likely change much unless someone decides to do a few drastic changes, as her moveset is flawed in many aspects, but I don't really care, I'm just happy she didn't get another set of nerfs xD

[Elochai]

You can still combo out of Ghastly wail, and you can still combo into it, it's just that Bufu eats the 2C buff, cutting off a HUGE amount of the damage it deals. Combine that with the fact that you have to use SB Bufu and  Ghastly wail is now useless as a combo ender, as it costs 125 meter for like 500 more damage.

 

I'm aware that you can still combo into it (I didn't know that comboing off of it was still possible, so thanks!), but I would rather find a combo route where SB Wail isn't used as a combo ender. If we're talking about "optimization" and things of that nature, it would be best to combo into SB Wail early on in a combo to utilize 1HSM. I'm still iffy on how comboing into command grabs work in this version (it's possible to combo them on frozen/spinning/aerial opponents, but I don't know much else), so maybe it's not even possible. I just hope that someone tries SB Wail mid combo so my expectations are assuaged  .

 

Edit: I never really thought about it until now, but jC cross up got pseudo-buffed since CH jC causes floorbounce now.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Elochai

[Luminos564]

You can still combo out of Ghastly wail, and you can still combo into it, it's just that Bufu eats the 2C buff, cutting off a HUGE amount of the damage it deals. Combine that with the fact that you have to use SB Bufu and  Ghastly wail is now useless as a combo ender, as it costs 125 meter for like 500 more damage.

 

 

You know what'd be a GREAT way to justify losing the 2C buff on the Bufudyne series with Ghastly Wail enders? By allowing Thanny-kun to grab people that are already put on ice. 5D and JD can grab characters that are put on ice now, I've see it done a couple times. So why not Ghastly Wail? It would both spare us the additional 50SP we'd need to spend on OMCs and actually allow (D) Ghastly Wail some fucking use (its speed and range are piss poor at the moment). Right now, it's dead weight in Lizzie's arsenal, much like Mamudoon, SB Mamudoon and SB Mind Charge. I mean think about it, (D) Ghastly Wail has a minimum damage of 2000. That's nothing to scoff at when we're already losing the 2C buff on Bufudyne and could serve to up her damage significantly in Awakening.

 

But like I said; we don't have this luxury. Which is a shame because I now REALLY want to toss Popsicle people into a death god's coffin.

[Orrax]

I can't really see these changes saving Liz in 1.1 based on what's listed. Her neutral game still involves a massive amount of risk, and it looks like she still doesn't have a good way to balance that risk. I'm hoping I'm wrong, though -- video evidence is really what's going to confirm how much better Liz got, and for that we're just going to have to wait.

[DeathArcana]

wait hold on a minute, since when could you combo into ghastly wail?

[Elochai]

wait hold on a minute, since when could you combo into ghastly wail?

In the first game, xx > 214B > AOA OMC > 214214C was used in the corner. Midscreen, you could have done xx > OMB > 214AB > AOA OMC > 214214C.

[Luminos564]

wait hold on a minute, since when could you combo into ghastly wail?

 

You always could. One of the challenges even asks you to combo into it from Counter-hit 5C. The big thing required is that you opponent needs to be in the "spinning" state for it to combo. Typically in a P4A match, a Lizzie player will need the following to do an optimum Ghastly Wail ender combo:

 

1. Get opponent to the corner.

2. Be in Awakening (obviously).

3. Have 100 SP minimum.

4. Do combo route where it ends in 214B (or 214AB if you got an extra 25 SP to burn), using 2C to prolong the Fear status during it.

5. Activate All out Attack.

6. OMC the AoA, putting the opponent into a spin-state.

7. Do Ghastly Wail (normally version C) for massive damage.

 

In P4U2, the Bufudyne takes up the 2C buff and you need even more SP for the SB Ghastly Wail which lowers the damage drastically. For reference, depending on the starter, Lizzie could do anywhere from 7.4K to 9K worth of damage with a Ghastly Wail ender in P4A. In P4U2, not only do you need more SP but the maximum damage I've seen an SB Ghastly Wail even do was 7.7K.

[Eshi]

You can still combo out of Ghastly wail, and you can still combo into it, it's just that Bufu eats the 2C buff, cutting off a HUGE amount of the damage it deals. Combine that with the fact that you have to use SB Bufu and  Ghastly wail is now useless as a combo ender, as it costs 125 meter for like 500 more damage.

 

For the patch notes,a s I've said earlier Liz won't likely change much unless someone decides to do a few drastic changes, as her moveset is flawed in many aspects, but I don't really care, I'm just happy she didn't get another set of nerfs xD

holy fuck, they actually did destroy Liz in this version. What the hell were they thinking? No wonder no one plays her anymore.

[Orrax]

I guess they thought her awakening buffs were more significant, but those buffs ultimately didn't amount to all that much. As a result, they nerfed the worst character from P4A, all while buffing the best (and by, "the best," I mean Yu).

Edited April 22, 2014 by Orrax