[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Luminos564]

holy fuck, they actually did destroy Liz in this version. What the hell were they thinking? No wonder no one plays her anymore.

 

I'll exaggerate paraphrase but I think I'll capture the true spirit and meaning behind it:

 

Employee #341: "Shit guys, P4A Lizzie is bad but she does too much damage. There's got to be a way we can cut down her playerbase by at least 75%".

Employee #909: "I've got an idea senpai. Why don't we make it so that her Ghastly Wail combos suck by having Mabufudyne take away the 2C buff?"

Employee #341: "BRILLIANT! For that, you get to expand Mitsuru's ballistics and make'em bounce even more".

Employee #909: "It's a dream come true".

Employee #1337: "EMERGENCY people! People are not using Yu Narukami nearly enough!"

Mori: *Does Gendo Ikari pose* "Get to it my slaves".

[Strife]

Here's something I made guys. You might've seen in twitter but whatever. It will clear all doubts.

 

 

That's how it works. You get 10 shots.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Strife

[Luminos564]

Strife if it were any other company in recent years, I'd call you a lying sack of jell-o. But given how utterly odd and downright...what's a good word...improvident ASW has been lately, I don't know whether to laugh or slam my head into my desk.

 

Honestly, I am still holding out that maybe, just maybe, the videos to come are going to be some good news for Lizzie. But I don't think I am gonna hold my breath. Who knows? Maybe Eshi has the right idea after all (though I kinda doubt that ASW is that generous).

[DeathArcana]

You always could. One of the challenges even asks you to combo into it from Counter-hit 5C. The big thing required is that you opponent needs to be in the "spinning" state for it to combo. Typically in a P4A match, a Lizzie player will need the following to do an optimum Ghastly Wail ender combo:

 

1. Get opponent to the corner.

2. Be in Awakening (obviously).

3. Have 100 SP minimum.

4. Do combo route where it ends in 214B (or 214AB if you got an extra 25 SP to burn), using 2C to prolong the Fear status during it.

5. Activate All out Attack.

6. OMC the AoA, putting the opponent into a spin-state.

7. Do Ghastly Wail (normally version C) for massive damage.

 

In P4U2, the Bufudyne takes up the 2C buff and you need even more SP for the SB Ghastly Wail which lowers the damage drastically. For reference, depending on the starter, Lizzie could do anywhere from 7.4K to 9K worth of damage with a Ghastly Wail ender in P4A. In P4U2, not only do you need more SP but the maximum damage I've seen an SB Ghastly Wail even do was 7.7K.

wow that seems to be a lot of work, especially now that the damage is lower, I always thought she could use a buff or two, but reading all this i see why they need to make her better

[RWA Announcer]

Pretty much what Luminos564 said.  I appreciate the optimism Strife, but considering this is the same Team Blue that broke her kneecaps in the first place, just to buff Narukami into King Tier, and also made pre-patch Kokonuts if I'm not mistaken, I'm going to have to see some footage before my faith in them is truly restored.  But, I'm just glad that this place is permeated with a sense of hope and optimism for once as opposed to, "Welp Thanny, it's been a good run, but I'm gonna need one of those coffins on your back to bury your mistress in, because this isn't working."  I AM happy to be getting anything at this point though.

[OmnixTSC]

Liz's neutral boils down to this most of the time.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and they get hit = praise Jesus.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and they block = ok.

She presses a normal (5B,2B,5C) and it whiffs = Massive catastrophe.

 

That's funny and all, but...

...

 

...

 

 

I.SURE.HOPE.YOU.ARE.JOKING.GOOD.SIR.

[Akiro]

Honestly, It's probably just best to wait and see. I remember people calling Vanilla CP Hakumen nothing but buttcheeks, but he ended up being really good.

[Eshi]

That's funny and all, but...

...

 

...

 

 

I.SURE.HOPE.YOU.ARE.JOKING.GOOD.SIR.

yeah, you're right. getting hit by 5C actually isn't threatening at all unless it's on airborne.

[DeathArcana]

It still groundbounces on aerial opponents right, regarding 5C?

[Elochai]

It still groundbounces on aerial opponents right, regarding 5C?

 

On air hit & with 1HSM ground hit.

[TheArm05]

5C gets shitloads of damage (in P4A1 at least) on any CH, any crouch hit, any hit close ish to corner with meter, and any air hit. 

 

Anyway I am obviously oversimplifying the neutral struggle with Liz but the point still stands and is not limited to just the given examples. 

[GBAer64]

I guess they thought her awakening buffs were more significant, but those buffs ultimately didn't amount to all that much. As a result, they nerfed the worst character from P4A, all while buffing the best (and by, "the best," I mean Yu).

Yeah what the hell on that ASW!? I mean... I know he's the King of Protagonist Swag but that doesn't justify making the bottom tiers like us even worse! Let alone giving Yu a freaking command grab! We ALREADY HAVE KANJI FOR THAT! YU'S GRAB IS ALREADY HELLA ANNOYING... '3'

 

On air hit & with 1HSM ground hit.

HSM?

[Elochai]

1HSM = One-hand Sword Master. It's the name of the 2C buff, which is now represented by a sword icon above Elizabeth's SP gauge. 

[D.R.F.]

Yeah what the hell on that ASW!? I mean... I know he's the King of Protagonist Swag but that doesn't justify making the bottom tiers like us even worse! Let alone giving Yu a freaking command grab! We ALREADY HAVE KANJI FOR THAT! YU'S GRAB IS ALREADY HELLA ANNOYING... '3'

HSM?

Im more against his great priority on his moves. Besides its arcsys, hazama of all people has 2, why cant narukami get one?:p

[DeathArcana]

What exactly does 1HSM do to Elizabeth?

[Elochai]

It buffs her next physical persona attack's damage by 50%*. This buff can be used by either 5C/jC/Ghastly Wail/Bufudyne (Bufudyne only counts in P4U2). 5C also floats opponents on hit if it's buffed with 1HSM (only in P4U2).

* = Percentage taken from P4U. I'm not sure if this was readjusted in P4U2.

[Eshi]

5C gets shitloads of damage (in P4A1 at least) on any CH, any crouch hit, any hit close ish to corner with meter, and any air hit. 

 

Anyway I am obviously oversimplifying the neutral struggle with Liz but the point still stands and is not limited to just the given examples. 

I forgot about regular CH but crouching hit isn't threatening IMO. The damage is pretty tame and more importantly it doesn't inflict fear. You get, like, jC knockdown into non-existent oki. I don't think corner matters at all, you still need a CH (fear) or airborne hit to do anything anyway.

 

my point was that the quoted dude said he hoped you were joking and I interpreted it as you not giving Liz enough credit, whereas I think you give her too much. I would amend it to 2B/jB/D Garu for the list of party time hits, everything else is shit.

[Luminos564]

It buffs her next physical persona attack's damage by 50%*. This buff can be used by either 5C/jC/Ghastly Wail/Bufudyne (Bufudyne only counts in P4U2). 5C also floats opponents on hit if it's buffed with 1HSM (only in P4U2).

* = Percentage taken from P4U. I'm not sure if this was readjusted in P4U2.

 

Small thing to add, but jC no longer consumes One-Handed Sword Master buff. It did in P4A (P4U), but this is no longer the case in P4U2. I know I've seen Lizzie players hit someone with jC with the sword icon present and it was not consumed.

[OmnixTSC]

I forgot about regular CH but crouching hit isn't threatening IMO. The damage is pretty tame and more importantly it doesn't inflict fear. You get, like, jC knockdown into non-existent oki. I don't think corner matters at all, you still need a CH (fear) or airborne hit to do anything anyway.

 

Isn't threatening on crouching in P4U2, right? Did anyone ever confirm/deconfirm whether or not 5C > SB Bufu worked on crouching? I don't remember seeing anyone ever do it, so I just assumed it was 3 frames too late to connect in P4U2.

 

In P4A, you did get fear, knowdown, and oki if you were reasonably close on 5C > A Bufu with a crouch confirm (about half a screen away). It gave you 3k+ damage, too.

 

As for whether 5C matters in the corner, it does in P4A. 5C > A Zio > OMC > Damage+Oki. It's a shame we can't really do that in P4U2 without fear pre-patch. Maybe we can get something worthwhile off of it post-patch? I don't know, it's possible we could have gotten something off of it pre-patch if not for 5C having so much SMP.

[Eshi]

lol I've totally forgotten how to play this character (corner zio). But if the crouch confirm with fear you're referring to ends with b bufu > jC then I wouldn't really call that "oki". Persona mixup is completely reactable in that game.

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[OmnixTSC]

lol I've totally forgotten how to play this character (corner zio). But if the crouch confirm with fear you're referring to ends with b bufu > jC then I wouldn't really call that "oki". Persona mixup is completely reactable in that game.

 

Ender is usually 5C > 2C > Agi oki or 5C > 2C > SB Zio > (Delay) Agi. You can even do 5C > Meaty Agi as an ender if it's a FC and 2C won't reach (or on other combos that aren't prorated too badly). I usually go for 5C > 2C > Agi myself.

[Eshi]

Ender is usually 5C > 2C > Agi oki or 5C > 2C > SB Zio > (Delay) Agi. You can even do 5C > Meaty Agi as an ender if it's a FC and 2C won't reach (or on other combos that aren't prorated too badly). I usually go for 5C > 2C > Agi myself.

I do the same thing but it's completely avoidable. Just don't emergency tech and delay tech so the fire passes right by you. There's a ton of unsafe start-up with SB Zio > Ragidyne and many characters punish that for free. Against people who don't know the match-up yeah it works and it's scary, but it really sucks how desperately Liz relies on the opponent not knowing the correct reactable answer out of everything.

[OmnixTSC]

I do the same thing but it's completely avoidable. Just don't emergency tech and delay tech so the fire passes right by you. There's a ton of unsafe start-up with SB Zio > Ragidyne and many characters punish that for free. Against people who don't know the match-up yeah it works and it's scary, but it really sucks how desperately Liz relies on the opponent not knowing the correct reactable answer out of everything.

 

With C Agi, though? That's the one I use. The whole point of that is to push them to the corner while you run in for free or punishing/pressuring them for trying to tech over the incoming flames. And even if I do D Agi or C Agi near the corner and they do indeed delay tech to avoid the flames, I still get free pressure on their wake-up since the opponent is usually near the corner at that point (and so am I). Also, it's not like you want to do SB Zio > Agi if they have the means to punish or avoid it. It's a decent option to use every blue moon, though.

 

Strangely enough, I can get these to work consistently enough on players that know the MU due to conditioning. I try to mixup my strats a lot and pick-up on habits as quickly as possible so that Liz isn't read like an open compendium. 

[GBAer64]

With C Agi, though? That's the one I use. The whole point of that is to push them to the corner while you run in for free or punishing/pressuring them for trying to tech over the incoming flames. And even if I do D Agi or C Agi near the corner and they do indeed delay tech to avoid the flames, I still get free pressure on their wake-up since the opponent is usually near the corner at that point (and so am I). Also, it's not like you want to do SB Zio > Agi if they have the means to punish or avoid it. It's a decent option to use every blue moon, though.

 

Strangely enough, I can get these to work consistently enough on players that know the MU due to conditioning. I try to mixup my strats a lot and pick-up on habits as quickly as possible so that Liz isn't read like an open compendium. 

Whoa... it seems like we're actually talking about gameplay here. Such a miracle... *v*

But is this for P4A? Or P4A:TUSH?

[OmnixTSC]

Whoa... it seems like we're actually talking about gameplay here. Such a miracle... *v*

But is this for P4A? Or P4A:TUSH?

 

That was for P4A specifically. The same can arguably be applied to P4U2 in any situation where we can do air hit 5C > 2C or air hit 5C for meaty Agi. But, it's not like we see Liz players in Japan experimenting, so...

 

The only difference is that we'd have to adjust our timings for the Agis, as they work differently in P4U2. The mixup/pressure we get off of them would most likely be altered as well, with the use of more resources being a possibility.

 

Hmm, now that I think about it...new A Zio has a slight wall bounce, doesn't it? Has anyone in the videos we've linked ever attempted to OMC A Zio after a 5C on a grounded opponent and then attempt to follow-up with 5C > 2C? I just randomly thought of that...and now I'm wondering if that would work, though there might not be enough time to land the 2nd 5C :/