[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Elochai]

SB Zio > D agi is kinda cool in P4U because you can set up mindgames with it. If you're fighting a character who could punish you for it, you can just condition the opponent to expect the D agi, and then just punish them for committing to a move. For example, conditioning a Yosuke player to want to SB Dash after SB Zio, and then punishing his SB Dash with like block>2B. 

 

I think midscreen agi oki only works pre-awakening in P4U2. However, I think B/awakening SB Zio will replace agi oki in the corner. I see no reason why this wouldn't be the case. In theory, Zio oki shouldn't be rollable (big hitbox, decent active frames), and your mix-up should be safe (releasing B Zio to cover the recovery of your mix up/timing your mix up so that the second shot of SB Zio puts the opponent in blockstun during your mix up's recovery).

A Zio has a small wallbounce, but I don't think it's significant enough in this version  to be comboed off of. The hitstun drops really quickly, so I doubt 236A OMC > 5C > stuff would work; perhaps it would work in the corner though? This is kind of tangential I suppose, but awakening 236AB has really cool combo potential midscreen. When the opponent gets wallstuck (wallbounded? I don't know the term here, sorry!), Elizabeth can actually move them to the corner and continue the combo afterwards.

[OmnixTSC]

SB Zio > D agi is kinda cool in P4U because you can set up mindgames with it. If you're fighting a character who could punish you for it, you can just condition the opponent to expect the D agi, and then just punish them for committing to a move. For example, conditioning a Yosuke player to want to SB Dash after SB Zio, and then punishing his SB Dash with like block>2B. 

 

That's the way Lizzie works. You have to mindgame the heck out of your opponent with your tools that may or may not be active on the screen.

 

I think midscreen agi oki only works pre-awakening in P4U2. However, I think B/awakening SB Zio will replace agi oki in the corner. I see no reason why this wouldn't be the case. In theory, Zio oki shouldn't be rollable (big hitbox, decent active frames), and your mix-up should be safe (releasing B Zio to cover the recovery of your mix up/timing your mix up so that the second shot of SB Zio puts the opponent in blockstun during your mix up's recovery).

 

I think I talked with some people about Zio oki being strong and not seeing it enough. It's kind of weird the way most of the Liz players use it.

 

A Zio has a small wallbounce, but I don't think it's significant enough in this version  to be comboed off of. The hitstun drops really quickly, so I doubt 236A OMC > 5C > stuff would work; perhaps it would work in the corner though? This is kind of tangential I suppose, but awakening 236AB has really cool combo potential midscreen. When the opponent gets wallstuck (wallbounded? I don't know the term here, sorry!), Elizabeth can actually move them to the corner and continue the combo afterwards.

 

236A OMC > 5C > stuff probably does work in the corner still. I don't see why it wouldn't.

 

Wallstick, wallbound, wallbind, etc. People will more often than not understand what you mean. Anyways, 236AB has a lot of potential in general that I feel we don't see enough b/c of the lack of meter management from most of the Liz players we've seen. I know they want to get things started, but sometimes you just have to be patient and not blow all your meter. I want to see them contest air approaches and ground approaches more with less meter and using better angles on their air normals. Would go a long way at the end of the day.

[GBAer64]

That's the way Lizzie works. You have to mindgame the heck out of your opponent with your tools that may or may not be active on the screen.

 

 

I think I talked with some people about Zio oki being strong and not seeing it enough. It's kind of weird the way most of the Liz players use it.

 

 

236A OMC > 5C > stuff probably does work in the corner still. I don't see why it wouldn't.

 

Wallstick, wallbound, wallbind, etc. People will more often than not understand what you mean. Anyways, 236AB has a lot of potential in general that I feel we don't see enough b/c of the lack of meter management from most of the Liz players we've seen. I know they want to get things started, but sometimes you just have to be patient and not blow all your meter. I want to see them contest air approaches and ground approaches more with less meter and using better angles on their air normals. Would go a long way at the end of the day.

Speaking of mindgames what do you guys usually do during the D Maragidyne set up? I usually jab 2A repeatedly since it's quick and fast and they eventually fudge up with it. I used to use AoA for the overhead but even in pressure people can easily block it since it's so slow.

 

Someone remind me again what oki is? I'm starting to lose my grip on the terms too... .-.;;

 

It's a lot more tricky to do 236A than 236B even with the OMC honestly and plus it's pretty much meterless since the recovery is quicker and doesn't require an OMC to continue the combo if they're wall...bound.

 

Also there's a combo in challenge mode that I wanna know what you guys think about. I think it's #23(?) where you have to DP (Shuffle Time) the opponent at the corner and you're supposed to dash up and poke them with A since you're pushed back when they pop out of the Demon Compendium. Any idea what to do with that? Since the timing is so specific and the follow up after it is mind numbing...

 

Any tips for how to consistently IAD like a lot of combos go? Yeah I can block but I lack in a lot of practical things you guys probably have...

[TheArm05]

On D Maragidyne set up Liz's only real mixup is jump > late j.A or empty jump > 2A.  It isn't great but it is something.

 

Oki is the term used for what you do to an opponent after knocking them down as they are trying to get up.

 

236A is WAY faster than 236B and allows for the combo of 5C > 236A > OMC (Hold 6) > 5B > stuff.

 

That Shuffle Time combo is worthless.  It only works off of a Fatal Counter when they are directly in the corner.  You have to microdash 5A after shuffle time (input 66 5A really fast) to pick it up. 

 

As far as IADs go the best way to do them is input 956 as fast as possible.  It is relatively difficult and just requires practice. No real tricks to use there it just has to be done fast

[OmnixTSC]

On D Maragidyne set up Liz's only real mixup is jump > late j.A or empty jump > 2A.  It isn't great but it is something.

 

You can also cross them up during it if timed properly with an air turn > air back dash > j.A. I usually run forward and then do an aerial backdash or do air turn > air back dash > air turn > 50/50 to confuse people.

 

That Shuffle Time combo is worthless.  It only works off of a Fatal Counter when they are directly in the corner.  You have to microdash 5A after shuffle time (input 66 5A really fast) to pick it up. 

 

Do you mean Shuffle Time combos in general? If not, then don't read anymore :P

 

If so...it's not worthless in the slightest, lol. It works on CH as well, first off. You get a knockdown and/or oki off of it and 2k+ damage meterless. I've won at least 5 games today b/c I landed this very confirm. You can even Hama off of it and kill people if you're feeling all warm and fuzzy inside.

[Elochai]

TheArm's/Omix's posts are really good, but I just would like to add a few minor things:

 

In addition to what TheArm mentioned on D Agi oki, you can also do 236D/236CD crossups, or slightly modify the way you use jA & 2A. The Garu stuff is, admittedly, pretty gimmicky, but it works sometimes. For visual demonstration purposes.

On regular CH, you have to change the Shuffle Time combo to 66 5A > 5C. IIRC, you can't do the jB > jA > jC route if you didn't land a FC.

[GBAer64]

TheArm's/Omix's posts are really good, but I just would like to add a few minor things:

 

In addition to what TheArm mentioned on D Agi oki, you can also do 236D/236CD crossups, or slightly modify the way you use jA & 2A. The Garu stuff is, admittedly, pretty gimmicky, but it works sometimes. For visual demonstration purposes.

On regular CH, you have to change the Shuffle Time combo to 66 5A > 5C. IIRC, you can't do the jB > jA > jC route if you didn't land a FC.

Insanity is all I can say for that crossup... I mean I can do it (in fact it took me two tries trying to crossup my bro) but whoa... Such profound knowledge. Teach me more Omni, Arm, and Poopy Head Senpai... *-*

 

Oh so the jB>jA>jC route only works on FC? That makes a lot more sense... So 5C instead and from there I'm guessing you can go with say 2C>236B>Sweep>236CD>...(From here I use a OMB>5C>2C>214B>AoA>OMC>Ghastly Wail)

 

I think it gives about 6K-8K. The huge gap being because it's a 50/50 on getting the AoA>Ghastly Wail part right. I get a little excited sometimes and jab them by accident instead of Ghastly wail when I OMC.^_^;;

 The input for OMC on the pad is... ABC right? Or square, X, and Triangle as I remember.

 

Now that that's done... I'm now trying to perfect/learn the ways of the Garu loops so any tips on that too? All I know is that it's easy to do on say Akihiko or Kanji (in fact I have been able to perform it ONCE against them but only once my entire time with P4U), but it's ridiculously awkward and weird to do it with Chie or Teddie...

 

 

Bolded part: My Corner combo route when I can 2C them without the opponent flying or FC'd, not the most practical but it's the flashiest and biggest combo (in damage) that I know I can execute without fail. Kinda derived some of it from Elizabeth's Challenge #30 and if I don't have meter then it usually just ends with 236D instead of 236CD.

[Elochai]

Bolded part: My Corner combo route when I can 2C them without the opponent flying or FC'd, not the most practical but it's the flashiest and biggest combo (in damage) that I know I can execute without fail. Kinda derived some of it from Elizabeth's Challenge #30 and if I don't have meter then it usually just ends with 236D instead of 236CD.

 

If you want comparable damage for less resources, you can run 2C > 236B > 5B > 2AB > 236D > 2A > 5B > 2AB > 236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B > ender.

In regards to P4U2 1.1, the new 2C looks pretty nice to me. It's like Thanatos slides across the floor now. That Liz player seemed to like the buffed Randomizer, too.

[Luminos564]

In regards to P4U2 1.1, the new 2C looks pretty nice to me. It's like Thanatos slides across the floor now. That Liz player seemed to like the buffed Randomizer, too.

 

I'll say. First time I've seen a Lizzie actually even WIN against a Mitsuru. I guess the buffs to Randomizer/Debilitate was what it needed. Aigis still mopped the floor with Lizzie but then again, this is Aigis we're talking about. Her damage is damn ridonculous and goes on long enough for you to go grab a coffee and chug it down before they're done. Seemed like the guy was using the auto-combo a lot more, actively using 25SP for the SB Mabufudyne and then going into AoA. Considering now that every [C] launch from an AoA is a Fatal Counter regardless of button mashing, there may be something we can do here. Too bad Lizzie's aerial game/combos are not particularly damaging enough to make much use of it.

[RWA Announcer]

I know it's extremely early, but save for Aigis being Aigis, which I can forgive because she's basically got Marvel combos, that really made me optimistic for her future.  And Randomizer grabs are really hype too!

[OmnixTSC]

If you want comparable damage for less resources, you can run 2C > 236B > 5B > 2AB > 236D > 2A > 5B > 2AB > 236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B > ender.

 

If you have the timing for it down, aren't getting murdered by netplay, and are close enough to the corner...*cough* you can omit the 2ABs to get one more rep of D Garu at the end iirc.

 

So it'd be something like: 2C > B Zio > 5B > D Garu > 2A > 5B > D Garu > 2A > 5B > 2AB > D Garu > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > B Bufu > Ender

 

I'll confirm/deny it in a bit. 

 

In regards to P4U2 1.1, the new 2C looks pretty nice to me. It's like Thanatos slides across the floor now. That Liz player seemed to like the buffed Randomizer, too.

 

Sounds interesting. I'll go check out that video in a bit.

[Dazardz]

That Liz was really entertaining to watch! I just found it pretty nice to see Thanatos out a lot without constantly getting broken.

[OmnixTSC]

That Liz was really entertaining to watch! I just found it pretty nice to see Thanatos out a lot without constantly getting broken.

 

It was mostly b/c the players up against the Liz didn't know how to punish all the bad persona calls. Nobody punished the Liz for doing B Zio right in their faces, either. It's kinda sad once you think about it

[Dazardz]

It was mostly b/c the players up against the Liz didn't know how to punish all the bad persona calls. Nobody punished the Liz for doing B Zio right in their faces, either. It's kinda sad once you think about it

Eh heh, it did look stupid in one of the videos where Sho got pushed around on the other side of the screen by constant counterhits from Thanatos. It was stupid for him not to frickin block, honestly.

[TheArm05]

It was mostly b/c the players up against the Liz didn't know how to punish all the bad persona calls. Nobody punished the Liz for doing B Zio right in their faces, either. It's kinda sad once you think about it

 

This is so true.  Whenever I am watching a Liz video and she gets away with 5C > 2C on block without losing a card or the opponent gets grabbed by 5C (block) > 5D I just X out of the video.

[Luminos564]

This is so true.  Whenever I am watching a Liz video and she gets away with 5C > 2C on block without losing a card or the opponent gets grabbed by 5C (block) > 5D I just X out of the video.

 

I think that's a little extreme, though I can certainly understand why you'd do that. But, just because you have someone failing to punish the obvious routes, that doesn't mean the video can't teach you anything. For instance, in the vs. Naoto match, the Lizzie went for a 2D when the Naoto thought to attempt her FA, something which never occurred to me to even try. Or the second time where the Lizzie deliberately delayed the 2C by making a good call against the Naoto's FA or blocking her bullets to prevent a card loss. I'd also argue that since they've just hit the new patch, maybe it's better to watch the video to see how the changes affected the character and come up with our own theories on the matter, even if the people they are playing against may not be that good.

[GBAer64]

Eh heh, it did look stupid in one of the videos where Sho got pushed around on the other side of the screen by constant counterhits from Thanatos. It was stupid for him not to frickin block, honestly.

Now that I think about it... I wonder how much of a pain/easy target Sho would be? I'd say a 5-5 or 6(Sho)-4(Liz) since he does have the upper hand by the teleport that I've seen from Personaless Sho. But he doesn't exactly have a "Rock Paper Scissors Crossup" like Akihiko.

 

 

This is so true.  Whenever I am watching a Liz video and she gets away with 5C > 2C on block without losing a card or the opponent gets grabbed by 5C (block) > 5D I just X out of the video.

Thank GOD I'm not the only one who does that...

 

If you have the timing for it down, aren't getting murdered by netplay, and are close enough to the corner...*cough* you can omit the 2ABs to get one more rep of D Garu at the end iirc.

 

So it'd be something like: 2C > B Zio > 5B > D Garu > 2A > 5B > D Garu > 2A > 5B > 2AB > D Garu > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > B Bufu > Ender

 

I'll confirm/deny it in a bit. 

 

 

Sounds interesting. I'll go check out that video in a bit.

Oh yeah... Forgot about netplay's OP powers of lagginess... But how do you D Garu after 5B though? I haven't exactly tried it yet, but wouldn't the start-up for D Garu be a few frames too many to continue the combo like that?

 

And also link plz.

Either there never was a link or I never had eyes to begin with. (Which it's usually the latter...)

 

For instance, in the vs. Naoto match, the Lizzie went for a 2D when the Naoto thought to attempt her FA, something which never occurred to me to even try. Or the second time where the Lizzie deliberately delayed the 2C by making a good call against the Naoto's FA or blocking her bullets to prevent a card loss. I'd also argue that since they've just hit the new patch, maybe it's better to watch the video to see how the changes affected the character and come up with our own theories on the matter, even if the people they are playing against may not be that good.

I thought everyone did that when they went against Naoto... : / I do that all the time since I seem to meet more Nao-chans than Yu-SK (Swag King) or Mitsuru-Senpai-don't-notice-me-please  nowadays. Plus with my experience as a Nao-chan player (okay now I feel like I'm bragging...)! A lot of Nao-players like to get up in Liz's face and FA expecting something like 5C or 2C. Of course in circumstances where Nao-chan is getting up after a combo, the FA on that situation even more.

 

(And why am I using honorifics?)

[OmnixTSC]

I thought everyone did that when they went against Naoto... : / 

 

It's not something you want to make a habit out of against decent Naoto players. They actually won't shield you there, and you'll end up getting thrown or CH. I only like going for poison to catch someone sleeping fullscreen, after SB Agi, after Bufudyne in the corner, and after a OMB if I need it to kill. I'll sometimes do it after SB Zio in the corner, too. 

 

But how do you D Garu after 5B though? I haven't exactly tried it yet, but wouldn't the start-up for D Garu be a few frames too many to continue the combo like that?

 

Um...I'll upload a video for it in a bit, I guess. You're basically just inputting D Garu as soon as the 5B recoils/vacuums after hitting them. It's the same as if you were trying to D Garu a crouching opponent:

 

5B > (wait for the 5B to pull them towards you) D Garu > loops

[GBAer64]

It's not something you want to make a habit out of against decent Naoto players. They actually won't shield you there, and you'll end up getting thrown or CH. I only like going for poison to catch someone sleeping fullscreen, after SB Agi, after Bufudyne in the corner, and after a OMB if I need it to kill. I'll sometimes do it after SB Zio in the corner, too. 

 

 

Um...I'll upload a video for it in a bit, I guess. You're basically just inputting D Garu as soon as the 5B recoils/vacuums after hitting them. It's the same as if you were trying to D Garu a crouching opponent:

 

5B > (wait for the 5B to pull them towards you) D Garu > loops

Well of course, I only use it against... say the C-B+ ranked Naoto's and below since people in that class as I recall are usually really FA happy. Other times I use 2D is when I get a combo off of them and I can do it before they wake up. Helps a lot against the rough and tough big one's like Aki.

 

So wait, as soon as the cards pull back? Not the full animation. Got it.

Lemme see if that works in some time.

 

Also I tried doing SB Maragidyne, jump backwards, j.B, D Garu since that seems to work but for some reason the opponent ends up a bit too far below me to continue before the get back up. I'll try and find a video to show what I mean.

 

Update (4 mins later): Found it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0B6ARUnGRw#t=221  right when she uses SB Maragidyne and then Mind Charges.

 

Update mk0.5 x2: Wait I figured it out, it's because she uses Mind Charge that she has time to do the jump and j.B like that. Nevermind.

[OmnixTSC]

Doesn't fit in the video thread, so I'll post it here.

 

Our goddess is at least somewhere. Still holding back, too. That DP should have IK'd.

 

All Hail Golden Liz

[OmnixTSC]

What...what goes through people's minds when they play this character? I really want to know now. 

 

*Has 100+ SP*

*Lands crouch confirm*

*Does 5C > 5D anyways*

 

There's a reason I can't complain anymore. None of the stuff I'm watching is Liz's fault lol

[Dazardz]

I haven't watched the video yet, did the Liz do some other normals before 5C? Or was it a straight CH 5C and the opponent happened to be crouching.

[OmnixTSC]

I haven't watched the video yet, did the Liz do some other normals before 5C? Or was it a straight CH 5C and the opponent happened to be crouching.

 

Edit1: The liz started with j.B and then did 5B > 5C > 5D instead of going for a crouching confirm (just rewatched it).

 

Edit2: One of the rare places where we would have actually seen AoA > OMC > Wail if the Liz actually noticed at 3:38:

 

Here

 

The Liz could have done 2C > Mind Charge > 2C > SB Bufu > (Whiff) 2C > AoA > Wail to end the round.

[Elochai]

Japanese Liz neutral is just plain odd to me. With exception, of course (because generalization is untrue and bad), Japanese Liz players seriously limit themselves when they play the game. I think you can count on one hand the amount of times a JP Liz has done agi in neutral, for example. A lot of them get beat up because they refuse to push buttons. Like in that Narukami match, the Liz player never even tried to GC roll. At all.

Blockstrings fall to the same sin: everything gets cancelled into 5C>5D. No staggers, no mix-ups, nothing. I'm praying to deaf ears (and complaining a lot), but it is what it is I guess.

@Omnix, would you mind timestamping the video or editing your post to reflect what time to skip to?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Luminos564]

You know you're playing poorly when a craptastic player like me can notice you not pressing any buttons. Seriously, watch that vs. NaruKAMI match. In the second round there's like en entire second where the Lizzie player just stands there, right in Yu's face and does nothing. Which was weird since in the vs. Akihiko match, they were smart to OMC and bait the Burst for the win. It's funny because the last 2 Lizzie players were quite different. The first one was more random with their strings and utilized Randomizer when possible. This one played very straightforward and never even attempted it. Come to think of it, the 2nd one didn't even bother with Magarudyne, Mabufudyne and Maragidyne all that much either.

 

Oh well, seems like what we expected turned out true: Lizzie is still pretty free against people. *Sigh* If only I (or anyone else for that matter) was in charge of or had creative balancing control/influence for the character...