[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[OmnixTSC]

Hey, that Liz made it to grand finals! He/she's legit! *cough*

 

Not pressing buttons in certain situations against Narukami makes sense. What doesn't make sense, however, is pressing buttons in the air against Narukami when you refuse to do so while on the ground. Almost everything Liz can do in the air without it being a well angled j.B or a j.A/j.2B AA will lose to his buttons. Narukami's 2B still frees our air options, and yet the player preferred to eat 2Bs and CH 2Bs instead of trying to play footsies and stall for meter. He doesn't have 5D oki now...the game won't just be over if he touches us, even with the damage boost :/

[Elochai]

It's funny because the last 2 Lizzie players were quite different.

 

People have always said that different Liz players play the character differently. I always find it interesting to read about.

 

2C > Mind Charge > 2C > SB Bufu > (Whiff) 2C > AoA > Wail to end the round.

 

This works? You can Wail mid-air opponents now? 

Perhaps in my post I may have come off in the wrong way, so I aim to assuage any misunderstanding hence: I don't mean that Liz should be like, wildly flailing and mashing buttons against Narukami. There are, however, instances where the Liz player could have (or rather should have) done something. Like when Narukami did 2C dash cancel; I'm almost certain that you can 5A him during his running animation. I do agree with your above post though, Omnix.

 

Edit: So I got to thinking: why don't Liz players try 5B > dash cancel > Randomizer (as a ghetto frame trap)? Once the opponent gets conditioned to respect your dash cancel, you could do like 5B > dash cancel > throw or just reset pressure. I mean, if people respect Chie 5C/Narukami 2C dash cancel, truly would Liz 5B dash cancel be respected, too. 

Edited April 29, 2014 by Elochai

[OmnixTSC]

 

This works? You can Wail mid-air opponents now? 

 

They aren't airborne by the time you hit them with AoA, so I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Can you explain this to me? 

 

Edit: So I got to thinking: why don't Liz players try 5B > dash cancel > Randomizer (as a ghetto frame trap)? Once the opponent gets conditioned to respect your dash cancel, you could do like 5B > dash cancel > throw or just reset pressure. I mean, if people respect Chie 5C/Narukami 2C dash cancel, truly would Liz 5B dash cancel be respected, too. 

 

I think the fact that Liz doesn't get much if she does hit you off of said dash-cancel or if she catches you with Randomizer will prevent most players from worrying about either. If they mash out or react in order to punish you, Liz is forced to rely on  her poor defensive options again (assuming you pressed a button after the dash cancel). In theory, it should work with proper conditioning.

 

Off-topic: I'm so mad at these two, you guys don't even know lol

 

Wtf is this

[Elochai]

They aren't airborne by the time you hit them with AoA, so I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Can you explain this to me? 

 

I don't understand why they wouldn't be airborne if the last hit of the combo before AoA > Wail is 2C. The combo you listed starts with 2C CH and then juggles the opponent with more 2Cs, basically. I think I misunderstood what you posted completely. 

 

Off-topic: I'm so mad at these two, you guys don't even know lol

 

Wtf is this

 

 

At first, it was a tad confusing watching that video. "Man, these guys are playing so oddly" I thought to myself. Then I looked at the name display.

 

...

[OmnixTSC]

I don't understand why they wouldn't be airborne if the last hit of the combo before AoA > Wail is 2C. The combo you listed starts with 2C CH and then juggles the opponent with more 2Cs, basically. I think I misunderstood what you posted completely. 

 

Ah, you must not have understood what I meant by SB Bufu > (Whiff) 2C. You have to whiff the 2C first before you can go into AoA after the SB Bufu. The last 2C isn't physically hitting the opponent.

 

At first, I was a tad confusing watching that video. "Man, these guys are playing so oddly" I thought to myself. Then I looked at the name display.

 

... 

 

Those two are trolls. They just wanted to mess with me while I was streaming, haha. Made me watch it live so they could hear my reactions

[Elochai]

Ah, you must not have understood what I meant by SB Bufu > (Whiff) 2C. You have to whiff the 2C first before you can go into AoA after the SB Bufu. The last 2C isn't physically hitting the opponent.

 

I didn't even know you could do this. This is kinda huge IMO. Expensive combos ending with 1HSM Wail, woo ~

[OmnixTSC]

I didn't even know you could do this. This is kinda huge IMO. Expensive combos ending with 1HSM Wail, woo ~

 

Yup. That's why we always have to use SB Bufu > (Whiff) 2C if we want to end a combo in Wail. Otherwise, we don't get the damage boost.

[GBAer64]

Off-topic: I'm so mad at these two, you guys don't even know lol

Wtf is this

Ugh... Haven't seen troll players like those in a long time. I remember this one named Johnny Sanchez that was a Liz player that I kept getting paired up with.

Every time I was just about to win, that guy would diconnect the match and I would end up getting the red name penalty. And when I messaged the guy he at first was like "Wtf are you talking about" and then when I reminded him he was like "Oh... yeah I don't care about you, you're nothing to me, and if go to your mom if you're gonna cry about it"

Breaking News: Two PS3 controllers were found hidden in a 14 year old teenager's cabinet completely destroyed. Witnesses are still unsure of the cause of destruction.

And then after that me and my friend kept getting paired with him and DC'ing with our other accounts. Oh it felt SO good shoving a mouthful of his own treatment to him...

*Ahem Cough cough* My bad I'll get back on topic. ^_^;;

[Zephyrion22]

Question, have we seen Liz's j2B having any use so far ? I know it's not the best thing out there, but I thought that both the floating effect and the kinda shield-like hitbox of the move would be helpful in air-to-air situations and maybe even for mixups and confirms of some sorts ? I mean I really hope that it has another purpose than getting like 400 damage more  of air chains that rarely happens anyway !

[Elochai]

I've only seen players use it as a combo filler tool. Though it would appear to be a good air to air in situations which belie the angles of jB. I'm not sure why players don't use it.

Thinking about the move's use as a mix-up is somewhat interesting though. How would you even use it as such? I could see use for maybe baiting anti airs.

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[TheArm05]

Is it even an overhead? If so I could see it used as a better starter for 2B OMC j.2B IOH maybe.

 

Also depending on the hitbox beneath it maybe we could do ambiguous crossup j.2B OMB > combo.

 

I also want to know what the CH stun on it is.  If it CH's aerial opponents to the floor it could be really crazy for blowing people up for trying to jump out of the corner.

 

Lots of question marks about that move and no real answers atm.

[OmnixTSC]

The way that j.2B changes our air momentum and movement in general should be varied enough from that of j.B. I think part of the reason we don't see it is that nobody knows how to combo with it on something like a counter hit in addition to not knowing what angles to use it at. But it's not like people know how to combo off of air-to-air j.A on counter hit either, so...

 

Someone needs to experiment with her entire moveset before we start shortchanging ourselves on theories. I'll just treat anything and everything as a possibility (outside of what we can actually debunk) until we get access to the game.

[OmnixTSC]

It's nice to see Damosu again. He was using Agi a lot, so that made me happy.

 

He still doesn't block, though

[Elochai]

Admittedly, his combos are what got me most excited. 4K + knockdown off of 5C? Yes, please (plus that garu cross up > jA was sick)! 1HSM 5C > IAD jB > jC was pretty nice, too. I kinda wonder if we can go back to fullscreen 5D > delay backwards IAD jA > 5A > xx.

 

His use of 236CD in neutral was kinda odd, too. It's like he's playing vanilla P4U and doing 236D in neutral .

 

 

[Strife]

I told you guys it would be fine! You should listen to me more often.  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[TheArm05]

I told you guys it would be fine! You should listen to me more often.  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

C tier: Liz

[Elochai]

The next question would be how great is the difference between tiers .

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[OmnixTSC]

The real tier-listing is obviously different. Arcadia always has the best characters at the bottom of the list. I mean, look at Makoto in BB! She's B tier! In actuality, she's the one true S+ tier of the game.

 

So there ya go, guys. Liz is most definitely S tier. Narukami is only SwordS tier.

[DeathArcana]

Well there is enough time between now and console for another update

[OmnixTSC]

I just think we should stop worrying about an update and just be prepared to put in work if we still want to use Elizabeth.

 

Honestly, I can't stress enough how much I feel as if our players are lacking in general without the fault being Liz's alone. People really didn't actively try to find stuff in P4U, nor did they learn the things that were readily available to them. They sure aren't trying in P4U2 either, with the exceptions being Damosu and friends.

 

I know that personally I didn't start helping with Liz stuff until half-way through last year, but this time around I'll be using Liz from the start instead of just messing around with her every few games after release. I'll be putting in work with her, so maybe you guys should just brace yourselves for the inevitable when you do the same.

 

Also, I just want to point out that Arcadia tier listings are generally based on the top/high-level players that attend the arcade and are not entirely representative of the general consensus on tier placement. Liz also doesn't have nearly as much representation as other characters, so it's really hard to place her accurately. I think she's in B tier along with Lab and Junpei.

[Dazardz]

I'm guessing you guys watched Damosu vs BB? Comments on the SB Randomizer and the heavy damage combo Liz got after it? It was in the last Liz match.

[OmnixTSC]

My thoughts are that Randomizer is basically our go-to reversal option now. DP will still have its uses, but I can see myself using randomizer more atm.

 

The damage was pretty great off of that as well. Trying to use randomizer while dealing with air-tight blockstrings might be a thing we have to consider.

[DeathArcana]

Im sorry what exactly is randomizer? Is it one of her new moves?

[Strife]

Im sorry what exactly is randomizer? Is it one of her new moves?

 

Exactly, it's a counter move.

 

Also, more Damosu footage incoming.

[Zephyrion22]

This set with Damosu was pretty nice ! I still think the biggest hurdle about randomizer will be the [8] buffer (if this is still a thing), so we'll have to rely on Shuffle Time  in some cases. And yeah, Liz is not hopeless, but we'll have to step up our game and make use of the few useful buffs Liz got (Awakening Zio and Agi, 2C and so on) now that sheer damage is gone.

 

I had a terrible vision though, Liz vs Golden Liz will probably be a slaughterfest xD

 

Edit : yeah Randomizer is  [6] 4,  bad numpad notation, editing to avoid confusing people