AchedSphinx Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Naoto's SMP loop didn't run the timer. It actually killed her opponent. The double standard is still there because both Naoto and Wald can cheese their way to a win in the same manner. It's a non-interactive win, which is basically what everyone dislikes about how Wald can time out a win. The time factor doesn't seem like a reasonable argument since they're both essentially the same (or achieve the same thing at any rate). Unless the argument is "If Wald's 6C loop killed the opponent then its okay."
papermarkis Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 SMP loops were generally 6k-7k damage combos and not at all infinites. The situations aren't really nearly as comparable as you seem to believe.
kazukifafner Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Personally, I think it's reasonable to factor in the strengths of the characters involved, so I don't see this and Naoto's situation being a double standard. I don't even think they were guaranteed kill combos either. Regardless, it's hard to justify banning it. I mean, a soft-ban, sure, but strictly banning it seems like a stretch. I rarely see Wald's in Japan use it, and even those that do typically can't even continue it through to the end of the match unless it's already almost over. Right now, it really just seems like an extra tool that Wald has, even if it results from a glitch. Doesn't even seem like it's all that good of a tool unless you're just that confident you can do it for the duration of the match. I don't see it affecting the meta either. Not even a little, since it's essentially just a combo "ender" (though it isn't supposed to end, lol). Annoying? Boring? Going to get patched out eventually? Sure, but that doesn't mean you need to punish people for using it with a ban. It still exists within the current state of the game. Unless it so detrimentally damages the game's balance to make Wald significantly more viable than he already is, it doesn't seem like it needs to be dealt with. That being said, banning it for the sake of making sure matches keep the regular pace intended through the game's mechanics is a pretty valid argument.
Sashi Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 If the bug were that Wald's 6C wallbounced and did 4k damage unprorated instead of not wallbouncing and being a timerscam, I'd be more okay with it. EDIT: I don't think most of you tried to actually do the infinite. The setup is not hard at all, the situation for it comes up very very often, and you literally just mash C while holding 6. It's legitimately hard to accidentally drop it.
Zeromus_X Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I don't think Naoto SMP loop is really comparable to Wald's infinite. For one thing, the SMP loop wasn't technically an infinite, it just did a lot of damage. It wouldn't even necessarily kill you unless you dun goofed and got hit by a freak starter. It also took meter or a burst to do damage which may not actually kill the opponent, in a game where most characters could sneeze at you and do 4k meterless. Most players that know the MU against Naoto know to save their burst for the SMP loop and make her use her resources and get set back to square one. Edit: Ninja'd
AchedSphinx Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 SMP loops were generally 6k-7k damage combos and not at all infinites. The situations aren't really nearly as comparable as you seem to believe. Well, I don't want to draw this out longer than it needs to be. But the situations are comparable. Can anyone else aside from Naoto and Wald do SMP Loops/Infinites? Can anyone else in P4A do 7k damage combos off any starter? You make it sound like 6k-7k damage isn't a big deal when the highest health in P4A is 10.5k (even that amount isn't safe considering she can OSK). It is a big deal and as pointed out earlier, it can lead to a non-interactive win. In both situations, when it happens, you lose. Comparing the two mechanics isn't totally off base.
haketh Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 It's off base because one just does a ton of damage and ends while the other doesn't end and only times out.
Kuuhaku Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Well, I don't want to draw this out longer than it needs to be. But the situations are comparable. Can anyone else aside from Naoto and Wald do SMP Loops/Infinites? Can anyone else in P4A do 7k damage combos off any starter? You make it sound like 6k-7k damage isn't a big deal when the highest health in P4A is 10.5k (even that amount isn't safe considering she can OSK). It is a big deal and as pointed out earlier, it can lead to a non-interactive win. In both situations, when it happens, you lose. Comparing the two mechanics isn't totally off base. SMP was never specific to Naoto. It was a programming oversight available to all characters. Her's just happens to be the most practical. Teddie has SMP loops. EDIT: The reason why Teddie's isn't used is because he has to go out of his way/spend a lot of resources to do it and he can get pretty much the same result in less impractical ways.
Icekin Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Can you imagine playing an offline session of 1v1's against a Waldstein who went for the infinite every occasion he had? Just sitting there for like 60-70+ seconds every time he did it, watching him hold forward and pushing C. If someone insisted on using it, I would just play someone else. Like how unbelievably hard to do you have to care about winning at all costs to use this awful, boring infinite in casual play? As for tournaments, well, I would ban it, but I don't go to those so I have no real opinion on the matter. Edit: As for Naoto SMP, someone already pointed out MVC2, who had a myriad of infinites and unblockables that were not only allowed but even encouraged, and even that game banned dead body infinites to time out clock. That says a lot about how much people don't care for this awful glitch.
AchedSphinx Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Can you imagine playing an offline session of 1v1's against a Waldstein who went for the infinite every occasion he had? Just sitting there for like 60-70+ seconds every time he did it, watching him hold forward and pushing C. If someone insisted on using it, I would just play someone else. Like how unbelievably hard to do you have to care about winning at all costs to use this awful, boring infinite in casual play? As for tournaments, well, I would ban it, but I don't go to those so I have no real opinion on the matter. Well, you don't understand how competitive gaming works. If you have a strategy that works and will win you a round, match, Grand Finals, or w.e then you do it until it can be stopped. Just because it is boring and awful doesn't mean its detrimental to the game as a whole. Only one character can do this out of sixteen. There are a lot of strategies in fight games that are boring and awful but people still continue to play fighting games (and do said strategies). Personally, I don't think it should be banned because it won't affect the game much. Walds will still lose to better players. Hell, even at casuals (or I guess tournament play), they might be more reluctant to even use it, considering there's a difference between playing someone online than playing them in real life.
Fatalis Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Using it isn't healthy for the game though. If someone who didn't know about UNIEL saw a stream and just saw someone use the infinite, and instantly win the game, they would immediately think it's a terrible game. Furthermore, it's incredibly boring. No one wants to just wait 60+ seconds for a timer scam, especially when it's fairly easy to do. Even Marvel infinites at least have it so that when a character dies (and that won't take a whole round of waiting), there's at least a chance for the opponent to block the incoming mixup and have a chance to get out. The infinites there are also a lot harder to do than just pressing 6C. If you get caught twice and get timer scammed out, that's it, and you just lose that round immediately. It'll be funny to see the first time, but if they allow the infinite to always be abusable, the game will be dead in no time.
Icekin Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything you're implying I did, and the rest is sophistry. Are you sure you quoted the right person? Hopefully it gets patched soon so this whole discussion becomes irrelevant.
Mumm-Ra Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 The only way I'd let this slip in a tourney is if the loop was permitted to be used in the last 10 seconds or something of the round, and even then I voted ban. Isn't this getting patched anyways?
SlothFacts Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Question for the TOs. What's the plan to enforce a ban like this? Especially if there's a rep-limit. Who's watching setups and counting reps? If it's up to the players to count reps, what's the protocol if there's a dispute over whether there were too many reps? If the rep limit is broken, is the player being infinite'd supposed to immediately stop playing and get a TO? If they finish the round out, and then claim the rule was broken, did they forfeit their claim by finishing the round? I'd just like a more concrete idea of what the ban would actually mean in practice.
Mike Z Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 A realistic ruleset for banning it would be: Limit Waldstein to two non-wallbounce 6Cs in a row. (If you want to be really harsh, limit him to one. If you want to be nicer, allow them to do it until the other player says "stop".) A regular [wallbouncing] 6C that close to the wall requires him to turn around to continue the combo, so doing two in a row must be intentional and can only be an infinite setup, and three or more is basically impossible accidentally since it takes something like 6 seconds before the 3rd 6C. Since NOT doing it is literally just being 1 pixel outside the corner, and it is actually fairly hard to set up besides the specific setups into 623C, I would say you are safe limiting anyone to two non-bounce 6Cs. You are probably safe limiting him to one or even zero for the most part. Two is more than enough to confirm a knockdown corner oki setup if you really want to abuse the bug to get that situation. If you wanted to be very harsh, just ban a corner 6C after 623C. You'd pretty much never do that except to start the infinite, and there are plenty of other followups for 623C. As with any other rule, someone breaking it should require the victim to immediately halt the round and alert a judge. If they let the round finish then the result stands. Wow, you really did create Skullgirls. A game without any infinites at all, with low-ranked characters winning major tournaments? Yep. Sounds like you haven't played it since before Encore, eh? :: waits patiently for you to post the Evo2013 finals, which is the equivalent of posting a vanilla UNiB combo now :: I'm not even sure what kind of insult you intended by that post, maybe you'd like to clarify. To be clear, I look at this as the developers' problem, rather than the players', which is why I say use it and abuse it at every opportunity so that if the developers care to not have their game dropped they are prodded to fix it more quickly. (I apply the same philosophy to SG, which is why it's gotten so many fixes.)
Errol Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I don't think the particular limit matters that much. you can limit it to 2, or 3, or 4. I'm not sure there is anything to be gained by doing it 2, 3 , or 4 times? time out or you don't? they get a lot more meter than you do when you do it. Maybe stall for gaining vorpal? I guess it would be better to make it low so it's immediately obvious and the other player doesn't have to be look.. 3.. 4.. Ok that's illegal! Do 1 under the legal limit, other player jumps the gun and pauses, gets DQd? Lol.
Rhiya Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 The point of choosing a limit is just to make it easily enforceable. If you don't define it, you're gonna have a mess when someone claims their opponent did the infinite. Putting a hard limit makes it easy for everyone to know when the rule was broken, and it also prevents unnecessary drama. There doesn't need to be any reason behind a particular limit besides that it makes it obvious someone is performing the infinite.
Mike Z Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I don't think the particular limit matters that much. you can limit it to 2, or 3, or 4. I'm not sure there is anything to be gained by doing it 2, 3 , or 4 times? time out or you don't? At 6 seconds left, 3 reps wins you the round. There are other combos you could have do to time scam there too, but there's always a point in doing it to the maximum allowed. Doing 3-4 reps every time you get the opportunity is certainly going to be annoying to your opponent, which may give you an edge as well.
nadakaineko Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 To be clear, I look at this as the developers' problem, rather than the players', which is why I say use it and abuse it at every opportunity so that if the developers care to not have their game dropped they are prodded to fix it more quickly. (I apply the same philosophy to SG, which is why it's gotten so many fixes.) I don't think that's really a fair assessment - the developers don't ultimately determine how the game will be played. It's their job to have their vision and make the game, but it's the player base that decides the format of the game really. This is clearly a bug and an oversight by the developer -- if it was just a ToD it wouldn't be so egregious, but it's not. It's up to us as the community to make a policy on this, and at the end of the day it's up to the individual TOs to chose and run it how they feel. I feel there is a stronger stack of evidence to support a ban of this. Just saying "the developers put it in the game" is quite honestly lazy and irresponsible.
Rhiya Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I don't think that's really a fair assessment - the developers don't ultimately determine how the game will be played. It's their job to have their vision and make the game, but it's the player base that decides the format of the game really. This is clearly a bug and an oversight by the developer -- if it was just a ToD it wouldn't be so egregious, but it's not. It's up to us as the community to make a policy on this, and at the end of the day it's up to the individual TOs to chose and run it how they feel. I feel there is a stronger stack of evidence to support a ban of this. Just saying "the developers put it in the game" is quite honestly lazy and irresponsible. To be fair, it's not like he doesn't understand that it's not intended. He explains why the infinite works, and what restrictions it's breaking, in his post in the Wald topic. I'm assuming he's just more in the hard "play to win with everything at your disposal" camp -- it's in there, no reason you shouldn't be able to use it. If that's how the game is, that's how it is. etc.
Mike Z Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Until they say the game isn't going to get patched anymore, IMO it's up to the devs to fix. After that, the players can decide what they want to accept or ban. But just because tournaments enforce their own arbitrary ruleset doesn't mean online does, which is where the majority of people will play, and they will be annoyed as hell by this. It will also be reported on FGC news sites, as it now has been. So ultimately I think banning it in tournament is a worse choice from the "but but people will think the game is bad" side too, since people can say "Well it's only playable if you ignore these things". If I can beat you with one combo and one button, I want my winnings! If you think that sucks, and you don't want to do it yourself - always an option! - maybe you should play a different game. My view is: If it freezes the game or prevents the other player from playing without killing them and without any further input on your part (which is essentially freezing the game, like Guile Handcuffs) then it's not acceptable; but pretty much anything else should be okay at this point. I suppose things that require 'further input' that's just mashing or that do not have any setup requirements, like that Dante bug in MvC3, are probably also not acceptable. But if it has a setup, timing, or meter requirement, sure. I didn't mind the dead-body infinites in MvC2 - if you can keep up 2f links with precise positioning for 99 seconds, go nuts. Most people decided to try to use them just to get to the corner (which became the official rule for when it's okay) because they were HARD, and they didn't seem any stupider than the rest of the tourney-legal stuff was. FDC infinites were certainly allowed in GGX tournaments. I think players today are slightly too ban happy and have lost that "OK, I'll find a way to win anyway" mindset. Not allowing a thing in tournaments doesn't make the game itself any better, basically. It's one step away from "throws are cheap". With this specific infinite, I don't think it'll even "make everyone play Waldstein". [edit] I think there should at least be one major tournament which allows it so that it can be appropriately determined whether it's even really a factor. The guy that did it in the a-cho vid didn't spend the night dominating everyone, for example.
xlolxlolx Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 speaking of patching, it's been well over 6 months since the last patch, if they intend on doing anything about it, it'll be in the next version when they add in the console characters
ehuangsan Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I think this is the divide between the old school and the new generation. If it's doable in the arcade and doesn't crash or freeze the game, I'd say go for it. This reminds me of A3 CC infinites which weren't and still aren't banned, as well as Morrigan's CvS1 infinite, which did no damage after 30 hits and was also not banned. Wald still needs to have a life lead for this to work.
Coren Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Until they say the game isn't going to get patched anymore, IMO it's up to the devs to fix. Because the lead developer for Skullgirls on Xbox 360 is totally who I want to hear about developers needing to have prompt patching cycles from. Tell me again how people finding jank in your game expedited you to quickly fix things and patch your game so that your users would have a better experience. French Bread (and you know this) are not exactly balling out of control. A patch is going to take a while, they're probably going to roll the arcade versions fix in with the addition of Byakuya and Nanase, a console port is not their main focus and who knows when they'll be able to push a patch for the console version.
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