[CP] News and Gameplay Discussion 2.0

[C0R]

So are we discussing 2.0 meta or CPE meta because I don't know anything about CPE meta.

BBCP2.0 is the name given to CPE before it was branded Extend.

[Anne]

And tbh, SKD basically explained the simpler offensive ideas in his earlier explanations, so I'd suggest you read over those.

[mAc Chaos]

So are we discussing 2.0 meta or CPE meta because I don't know anything about CPE meta.

What C0R said. But I was just talking about the idea of a "meta" as a general concept.

[Hollysmoke]

I meant 1.1. Goddammit, I'm out. I need coffee.

[Poultrygeist]

And tbh, SKD basically explained the simpler offensive ideas in his earlier explanations, so I'd suggest you read over those.

I did, but I'm still hungry for more!  I feel I only understand a fraction of the bigger picture and I'm not satisfied with my meager understanding.  What can I, as a player, do to make myself understand better?

Holy hell that's a lot of uses of the word understand.

[BlackYakuzu94]

And tbh, SKD basically explained the simpler offensive ideas in his earlier explanations, so I'd suggest you read over those.

 

Hmm, guess a little studying and understanding would do me some good.

[FKGunBlaze]

@C0R Any word on Hazama/Terumi/Lambda/Celica GCOD?

[someonewhodied]

Sometimes silence is better than five simultaneous discussions held by seven different parties with ten different objectives based on a thousand different understandings.

 

SMP mid-combo is really bad. Even in the case of an intentional reset, why put yourself in a situation where you could instead just get more untechable time? Sure they might be surprised that they get out. Then again you might get surprised that now your combo is punishable on hit.

 

SMP is great in specific situations (that do happen pretty often sometimes), whether midcombo or at the end. I can only think of 2 where it gives you nice damage in the combo AND increases your oki strength.

 

Noel 22B: If you do your first 22B and go for 2C oki after in the corner, it will bluebeat. If you SMP it instead, 2C will now catch nontech, rolls, and quicktech. And you recover in time to block/4D opponent DPs.

 

Nu [Luna]214D: So you use 214D earlier in a combo, then you get sickle. If you immediately do another 214D after sickle, it will smp and the last hit of sickle will hit immediately after, giving you similar knockdown to noel 22B. So for example: [Luna]5DD>236B~22A>5DD>236D~22A>5DD>214D>2DD>6C>236D>214D~22A>2B

if they don't tech, the 2B will not bluebeat.

 

 

 

 

Buuuut in most situations SMP is shit. Unless its LV1 smp and the damage reward is bigger for going for it anyways.

 

 

 

if you are talking only mid-combo and not towards the end or setting up stronger oki.

Heres something:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25609052

Watch it and weep.

 

SMP SMP SMP SMP SMP "holy shit where did my health go"

 

 

@SKD I totally did not realize every point i tried to bring up, dreiko had done hours ago. But i do agree with that long ass post you posted. It was a pretty good read.

[Hollysmoke]

I think SMP has highly-situational uses (judging by what people have posted and my own experiences). As far as offensive pressure goes, I've seen people do it but I never got why (I just chalked it up to miscalculating the number of times the move was used in a combo). I don't think one or two examples is enough to justify using it because when it resets, and the opponent techs, they're given an opportunity to make it their turn now. An experienced player will know what the gimmick you're going for is and put themselves in a situation to avoid it. You don't exactly have a lot of options with SMP.

[someonewhodied]

I think SMP has highly-situational uses (judging by what people have posted and my own experiences). As far as offensive pressure goes, I've seen people do it but I never got why (I just chalked it up to miscalculating the number of times the move was used in a combo). I don't think one or two examples is enough to justify using it because when it resets, and the opponent techs, they're given an opportunity to make it their turn now. An experienced player will know what the gimmick you're going for is and put themselves in a situation to avoid it. You don't exactly have a lot of options with SMP.

Thats why the general consensus is that its bad MOST of the time.

 

I personally would not be able to list even 5 situations where its good AND safe.

 

CPE tao tho. She just breaks the rules.

[Dreiko]

Bang has some combos that ignore SMP with his j623B during OD since it bounces midscreen and you can latch onto it daifunka. Most things however don't have perfect p2 and insane hitstun so they're not as optimal. In his case though he gets to do his optimal low-od-duration combos through SMP abuse.

[C0R]

@C0R Any word on Hazama/Terumi/Lambda/Celica GCOD?

GCOD is a universal mechanic and functions exactly the same for pretty much every character (unique overdrive effects not included)

 

Now there are definitely characters that benefit highly from things like GCOD reversal super (Haz/Tager/Terumi) but in the end it's just the application of the tools they already had in combination with a universal mechanic. (Very expensive)

 

Thats why the general consensus is that its bad MOST of the time.

 

I personally would not be able to list even 5 situations where its good AND safe.

 

IZ 8 stock combos I guess, but as a general rule, so long as everyone remembers that you don't /have/ to tech! It's your choice outside of stagger enders (ranga 22c SMP oki/tager 22d SMP oki)

[skd]

swd, looking at the untech/proration timeline, you can just figure out why the 2C does not blue beat on that knockdown. But, let's face it: you can create a more advantageous situation without using SMP, maybe even get a bit more damage out of the combo timer, maybe even better spacing before pre-expiring it for no real reason. Hard knockdown is hard knockdown, the tech options remain the same. Maybe, it might be easy to time it with SMP, but that isnt really optimal, so it ends up being useless when there are better plausible options. SMP in this situation and the nu situation really just forcing a tech in a situation where...you could...force a tech. Maybe its a bit "sneaky" or something, but are you trying to random someone out with gimmicks or create the strongest possible oki situation?

 

by this line of thought, smp kind of ends up being simply a limiter, despite having potential for cute unexpected tricks. at the end of the day, things like the threat of ragna 22c pickup recombo because of heavy untech decay is also possible without SMP, but  SMP may make it easier to time or set up, or make it "unexpected" (which i dont have a lot of faith in).

Edited April 10, 2015 by not_lunaris

[someonewhodied]

swd, looking at the notech/proration timeline, you can just figure out why the 2C does not blue beat on that knockdown. But, let's face it: you can create a more advantageous situation without using SMP, maybe even get a bit more damage out of the combo timer, maybe even better spacing before pre-expiring it for no real reason. Hard knockdown is hard knockdown, the tech options remain the same. Maybe, it might be easy to time it with SMP, but that isnt really optimal, so it ends up being useless when there are better plausible options. SMP in this situation and the nu situation really just forcing a tech in a situation where...you could...force a tech. Maybe its a bit "sneaky" or something, but are you trying to random someone out with gimmicks or create the strongest possible oki situation?

 

 

Well with nu its not the strongest situation which is why i don't go for it most of the time, but its nice to throw out there every now and then to catch people off guard when its obvious they are stuck in the habit of late-teching different setups. Luna sicklestorm's hard knockdown without SMP beforehand gives more damage in a combo and better oki (X>2DD>6C>236D~22A>214D~C) where spike chaser will catch nontech, latetech, and rolls, and will meaty anyone teching normally, giving time to actually block reversals too. That does get a tad repetitive though and after a certain point its easy to see the mixup after it so i use gimmick or weaker setups sometimes.

 

With noel you are going for 22B knockdown at the end of a combo regardless.

Like normally the combo would be like:

d6B>d5C>d6D>d236D>66C(1)>j.D>d4D>d214D>6C(1)>4D>22C>66C>6B>22B

but for easier timing AND more damage and heat:

d6B>d5C>d6D>d236D>66C(1)>j.D>d4D>d214D>6C(1)>5D>22B~C>66C>6B>22B

You get just a fraction more damage and heat but the oki is much easier to time.

 

WIth noel its actually optimal, with nu, its just a fun gimmick.

[skd]

it can be optimal as part of a combo (izayoi in every match), but in every situation the property of SMP is only acting as a limiter, which is what i am saying because we are discussing the idea of "SMP on offense"(?) as to which, i say really has no purpose because anything it does (especially on hard knockdown) can be achieved without it (imagine if the property was gone), so we can't really say that it's the SMP's doing.

 

I am trying to exclusively talk about SMP as a concept, not combos that incidentally include SMP. SMP combos exist for whatever reason, be it damage or resource gain.

 

Essentially, youve kind of strayed from the main point of discussion, which is OK. But, i feel the need to make this clear for whoever else happens to stumble upon this.

Edited April 10, 2015 by not_lunaris

[someonewhodied]

One post sorta just caught my eye and i sorta built off it. I'm assuming we were talking about smp in combos overall.

[skd]

really its fine lol. like, im not trying to say dont talk about this thing, i dont really want to limit discussion or anything. But i DO want to make it very explicit that SMP resets are not really a good idea, purely by design. And especially differentiate between offensive ideas/resets with smp and optimized combos that happen to have it.

Edited April 10, 2015 by not_lunaris

[Hollysmoke]

really its fine lol. like, im not trying to say dont talk about this thing, i dont really want to limit discussion or anything. But i DO want to make it very explicit that SMP resets are not really a good idea, purely by design. And especially differentiate between offensive ideas/resets with smp and optimized combos that happen to have it.

So basically SMP has its limited/specific uses but not in an offensive nature due to the design limitation that you're not supposed to use it for an offensive nature.

[BlackYakuzu94]

So its trying to get the most out of a situation in the most "correct" way possible.

[Anne]

So basically SMP has its limited/specific uses but not in an offensive nature due to the design limitation that you're not supposed to use it for an offensive nature.

SMP has no "use" It's just something there that limits your combo. Sometimes it's okay for that limiter to go off because you'll get more damage/resources/advantage(read optimization) off that route anyways. When Izayoi triggers SMP she's not "using" SMP, she's just doing it because that's what she's gotta do for optimal stock gain in combos (as far as I know, SKD can correct me if I'm wrong).

It's pretty simple I think, no need to over-complicate it.

[mAc Chaos]

its literally just SMP is bad and just because sometimes its involved in something good doesnt mean SMP itself is good

like just because you use a shitty move in a combo doesnt mean its not a shitty move

[skd]

logically speaking its design does not inherently suggest that you arent supposed to use it for offense, imo.

 

as the name suggests, it is simply a penalty for using the same move. it ends there.

 

SMPing at the literal last hit of a combo that would otherwise expire combo time yields no difference.

 

SMPing during a combo where you cant do anything else while retaining a knockdown situation isnt exactly a limiter, especially considering there are hard knockdown moves with smp that have static values for untechable time (not affected by decay) on landing.

 

As far as using SMP for okizeme and stuff, it really does nothing but hinder you as a property, but that is more of an affect of combo structure rather than the intention of SMP.

 

edit:lmfao, i like how we all posted this in a line.

Edited April 10, 2015 by not_lunaris

[Hollysmoke]

"Using" SMP was a poor word choice (Triggering would have been better) but I get it.

[BlackYakuzu94]

SMP has no "use" It's just something there that limits your combo. Sometimes it's okay for that limiter to go off because you'll get more damage/resources/advantage(read optimization) off that route anyways. When Izayoi triggers SMP she's not "using" SMP, she's just doing it because that's what she's gotta do for optimal stock gain in combos (as far as I know, SKD can correct me if I'm wrong).

It's pretty simple I think, no need to over-complicate it.

 

Is it the same reason why Jin uses Sekkaijin twice in the corner(at least in 1.0-1.1), it puts him in a much better position? But that in itself has nothing to do with SMP itself.

[skd]

Is it the same reason why Jin uses Sekkaijin twice in the corner(at least in 1.0-1.1), it puts him in a much better position? But that in itself has nothing to do with SMP itself.

 

it has nothing to do with the SMP property, sekkajin wallbounce is forced untechable for a set amount of frames i think? not 100% on that, but low hitting sekkajin does give you a very advantageous knockdown which is why it is preferable. another example of a good combo that incidentally has SMP (which is often disregarded)