BloodWolF Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 New Tier lists from Hikari no Senshi and Dora via a Famitsu interview posted this morning. (remember tiers are not end-all ranking and these are personal opinions, so take them for what they are) Hikari no Senshi (Makoto): S Jin Nu A Valkenhayn Hazama Kokonoe Relius Litchi Tager Taokaka B Azrael Ragna Tsubaki Makoto Bang Izayoi Carl Noel Kagura C Rachel Platinum Bullet Celica Mu Lambda D Amane Terumi Hakumen Arakune Dora (Bang): S Hazama Valkenhayn Jin Nu A Kagura Kokonoe Azrael Relius Makoto Litchi Tager Taokaka Tsubaki Ragna Carl Izayoi Hakumen Bang B Noel Rachel Arakune Platinum Amane Bullet Mu Celica Lambda C+ Terumi Source: http://www.famitsu.c...4/14076215.html
mAc Chaos Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Hakumen at A tier and D tier. What a difference of opinion. The others are closer together. Kagura being A makes the noise we heard about him being S make a little more sense.
Syklone Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Ahhhhhh that Hazama tier placing. Feels good man.
SoWL Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 You got a space in that URL, so it doesn't work. Here's the article: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201504/14076215.html
BloodWolF Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 You got a space in that URL, so it doesn't work. Here's the article: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201504/14076215.html Thanks, I appreciate it. I saw the link was broken, but was having trouble finding the time here at the lab to fix it. Updated.
Airk Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Ahhhhhh that Hazama tier placing. Feels good man. ??? Because it's so different from usual? :P
oh no, he said Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 At least they seem to agree on Jin and Nu being fucking ridiculous.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Doesn't Jin always get placed in S tier, because the top players that use him are just that fucking good with him. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
VermilionBird Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Ahhh, and we all thought Arakune was gonna be broken as shit with CPEX and the new Overdrive mechanic. Thank the Lord we were wrong
Dreiko Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 People thought Terumi would be broken too due to his drive. Kneejerk reactions seldom are good. As for the variance of Hakumen's placement, Goro is using Makoto and Dora uses Bang so I'd hesitate to say it's the matchup that makes them think so differently. Maybe Goro hasn't fought enough of him or something.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 He must be fighting some pretty free Hakumens.
StylisH Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 .....damn you Hazama. I see people still don't know that Izayoi is secret S tier yet. The plan is coming to fruition.
C0R Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Flipside is maybe just maybe Bang has a bad matchup against hakumen? Like he always has?
Eshi Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 People thought Terumi would be broken too due to his drive. Kneejerk reactions seldom are good. As for the variance of Hakumen's placement, Goro is using Makoto and Dora uses Bang so I'd hesitate to say it's the matchup that makes them think so differently. Maybe Goro hasn't fought enough of him or something. As part of Goro's interview, he says that Hakumen and Tager are his strongest match-ups. If I understand him correctly, he says both characters are very slow paced and can't do much at round start, giving him plenty of time to think through his moves which is his best strength. Interestingly, Tsubaki is his worst match-up.
Dreiko Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Flipside is maybe just maybe Bang has a bad matchup against hakumen? Like he always has? I don't know, Hakumen never felt like a bad MU to me. Even in CP it felt about even if not in Bang's favor.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 As part of Goro's interview, he says that Hakumen and Tager are his strongest match-ups. If I understand him correctly, he says both characters are very slow paced and can't do much at round start, giving him plenty of time to think through his moves which is his best strength. Interestingly, Tsubaki is his worst match-up. Well that explains that and was my second guess, Goro's got that matchup on lock, so it figures he wouldn't think much of playing against them. Who's are the Hakumens he tends to fight again? Off the top of my head I know Poropiccho and maybe Hikaru? Flipside is maybe just maybe Bang has a bad matchup against hakumen? Like he always has? I really don't have enough Bang experience to say with absolute certainty, but I believe Dreiko is correct about it being mostly even with a slight favor for Bang. Both characters have to be at relatively the same range to get anything, but Bang has better mobility(fucking backdash) and can harass Hakumen with nails. Of course, this is based on my experiences. How does Dora usually play Bang?
mAc Chaos Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Flipside is maybe just maybe Bang has a bad matchup against hakumen? Like he always has? Bang never had a bad matchup against Hakumen. Command grab and mobility 2 good. I don't really care what everyone's placing them at this point, it's just interesting that there is such a discrepancy. But it'll clear up once the game is released to console.
Dreiko Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 And don't forget j22a completely nullifies Hakumen's Ds even after he counters you with them! :D
C0R Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Well that explains that and was my second guess, Goro's got that matchup on lock, so it figures he wouldn't think much of playing against them. Who's are the Hakumens he tends to fight again? Off the top of my head I know Poropiccho and maybe Hikaru? I really don't have enough Bang experience to say with absolute certainty, but I believe Dreiko is correct about it being mostly even with a slight favor for Bang. Both characters have to be at relatively the same range to get anything, but Bang has better mobility(fucking backdash) and can harass Hakumen with nails. Of course, this is based on my experiences. How does Dora usually play Bang? I'll put it this way. It would be very difficult to convince me that there was a better Bang than Huey outside of JP. It would also be very difficult to convince me that there was a better Hakumen than Spark outside of JP (a lot of Jp players claim he is top 3 of hakumen players even over there). I have been watching these players play for a long, long time (thousands of games per version), ever since CT. What game would you say it's even in? Extend? Hakumen was easily on the top of the roster, and had with character specific instant overheads on Bang for wayyy too much damage. Cp? Half of the Bang players quit and it was universally agreed that he wasn't quite as good as he had been, meanwhile Hakumen continued to be terror as the reigning god of overdrive, even losing the instant overhead the difference between the characters remained. And I have come to these conclusions: Nails are ineffectual against hakumen in anything but the classed tk Dnail pressure resets of the golden age due Zanshin simply blocking them for free. They are telegraphed, and at the ranges where they are close enough to be fast enough to be unreactable Hakumen has a great sword normal to attempt a counterpoke (which bang would normally get a whiff punish for EXCEPT that the sword cuts the nail, giving him the seal) Hakumen has superior normals on the ground and in the air, if you don't believe in the power of j.b/5b outclassing everything else by eons I don't know what to say. Hakumen's normals simply are constructed to be just about the best normals in the game, and at their effective ranges Bang doesn't have access to real tools that normally indicate a bad matchup for Hakumen (Sword Summoner, Curse) I could keep going but I'll extrapolate more later cause I have to go.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 I'll put it this way. It would be very difficult to convince me that there was a better Bang than Huey outside of JP. It would also be very difficult to convince me that there was a better Hakumen than Spark outside of JP (a lot of Jp players claim he is top 3 of hakumen players even over there). I have been watching these players play for a long, long time (thousands of games per version), ever since CT. What game would you say it's even in? Extend? Hakumen was easily on the top of the roster, and had with character specific instant overheads on Bang for wayyy too much damage. Cp? Half of the Bang players quit and it was universally agreed that he wasn't quite as good as he had been, meanwhile Hakumen continued to be terror as the reigning god of overdrive, even losing the instant overhead the difference between the characters remained. And I have come to these conclusions: Nails are ineffectual against hakumen in anything but the classed tk Dnail pressure resets of the golden age due Zanshin simply blocking them for free. They are telegraphed, and at the ranges where they are close enough to be fast enough to be unreactable Hakumen has a great sword normal to attempt a counterpoke (which bang would normally get a whiff punish for EXCEPT that the sword cuts the nail, giving him the seal) Hakumen has superior normals on the ground and in the air, if you don't believe in the power of j.b/5b outclassing everything else by eons I don't know what to say. Hakumen's normals simply are constructed to be just about the best normals in the game, and at their effective ranges Bang doesn't have access to real tools that normally indicate a bad matchup for Hakumen (Sword Summoner, Curse) I could keep going but I'll extrapolate more later cause I have to go. Hmm, I see. Have you seen any other notable players in this particularly matchup or are you just going by those two primarily? I understand some players are definitely better than others, but I also want other points of reference.
C0R Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 For the record Huey plays almost exactly like Dora. Like he literally emulated Dora for 5 years and that's how he learned how to play BB. Which is why I can see why Dora ranks Hakumem high. Because Huey struggled against Hakumen for a long long time.
CosmicShadow99 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Ahhh, and we all thought Arakune was gonna be broken as shit with CPEX and the new Overdrive mechanic. Thank the Lord we were wrong Yeah this is kinda weird given that I think he only got buffs. Does anyone know what people think about playing the new blob or why he's falling down people's lists?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Yeah this is kinda weird given that I think he only got buffs. Does anyone know what people think about playing the new blob or why he's falling down people's lists? Well everyone else got buffs too, so I think it kinda balanced out.
SixWingedAngel Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 In CP a hakumen is child's play for bang if he manages to get close, and with j.22A cancels he certainly can. Not being able to use shuriken for a jump-in is a pain though. I'd say this match-up is mostly even.
Skye Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Yeah this is kinda weird given that I think he only got buffs. Does anyone know what people think about playing the new blob or why he's falling down people's lists? Hi. A few things really hurt Arakune, starting with the bigger stuff J.c no longer hitting crouchers is the actual nail in the coffin, removing a major, quintessential part of his curse mix up C and D bugs cost more curse meter, meaning you have either limited options or time to open your opponent up, combined with the nerfed mix up, it's a nightmare from an Arakune player's perspective. Nerfed proration on 2c reduced the reward from the what little high low you have now, so with the shorter combo and higher scaling, the reward for curse is about 3-4k if you open them up right away, this may not sound like a big deal, but keep in mind that Arakune NEEDS curse to do damage, and his playstyle revolves around struggling to get curse to reap that cathartic payoff of doing big damage to counterbalance his glaring flaws pre-curse, so in a nutshell he's working super hard to do have the chance to do damage in set intervals where other characters can get the same or more damage with just meter or a good confirm [Ragna, Hakumen, Jin, Nu, etc] OR have good enough pressure, mix up and/or stage control to where damage doesn't matter as much [Nu, Kokonoe, Valk, Litchi, Relius. There are other nerfs, but those nerfs when combined together puts Arakune in a wheelchair CS1 Rachel style. I think the gameplan for the character was to make curse easier to obtain but less rewarding per curse period, kind of what they did in CP1.0, but the buffs to building curse is not enough and comes at a cost of resources, I wouldn't count those as buffs persay, because in the grand scheme of things these buffs and nerfs did nothing to helps any of his MUs. Edit: if anyone is wondering, the name of the curse game is cross ups and guard crushes, guard crush leads to the most curse damage, but the set ups are very gimmicky and range dependent. tl;dr ver. Arakune has to work very hard just to reap the rewards that some (read: most other) characters get for free/considerably less work.
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