CosmicShadow99 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 @Skye I can see where a lot of this could be a problem when other characters like bullet just got pure buffs as opposed to the random grab bag of changes arakune usually gets. I guess I was assuming the addition of guard breaking C bugs to be more devastating. Though wait, how did they change j.c? It's just not counted as a high anymore? I mean it should still be a useful cross up tool all the same right?
Skye Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 If I had to guess they just removed a part of the hitbox that hits crouchers. It's still an overhead, but a rising j.c will whiff on crouchers.
TagerTime Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 New Tier lists from Hikari no Senshi and Dora via a Famitsu interview posted this morning. (remember tiers are not end-all ranking and these are personal opinions, so take them for what they are) Hikari no Senshi (Makoto): S Jin Nu A Valkenhayn Hazama Kokonoe Relius Litchi Tager Taokaka B Azrael Ragna Tsubaki Makoto Bang Izayoi Carl Noel Kagura C Rachel Platinum Bullet Celica Mu Lambda D Amane Terumi Hakumen Arakune Dora (Bang): S Hazama Valkenhayn Jin Nu A Kagura Kokonoe Azrael Relius Makoto Litchi Tager Taokaka Tsubaki Ragna Carl Izayoi Hakumen Bang B Noel Rachel Arakune Platinum Amane Bullet Mu Celica Lambda C+ Terumi Source: http://www.famitsu.c...4/14076215.html Their two lists taken together match up very well with my previous overall rankings based tier list. Showing that my rankings tier list was very accurate. Especially when compared to the simplified version. The only difference is Lychee who has shown to perform higher, and Tao who has shown to perform lower than both of thier lists. (in no particular order) S (Top Tier): Jin, Lychee, Nu, Hazama, S-/A+ (Very High): Teiga, Bang, Kokonoe, Azrael, A (High tier): Reriusu, Kagura, Hakumen, Tsubaki, Makoto,Vu~aruken Hein, Carl, Ragna B (Mid tier): Rachel,Taokaka, Platinum, Celica, Noel, Amane, Izayoi, B-/C (Low Tier): Mu, Bullet, Arakune, Lambda T (Terumi Tier): Terumi Simplified version: (in no particular order) S: Jin, Lychee, Nu, Hazama, A: Teiga, Bang, Kokonoe, Azrael,Reriusu, Kagura, Hakumen, Tsubaki, Makoto,Vu~aruken Hein, Carl, Ragna B: Rachel,Taokaka, Platinum, Celica, Noel, Amane, Izayoi, Mu, Bullet, Arakune, Lambda T(Terumi Tier): Terumi As part of Goro's interview, he says that Hakumen and Tager are his strongest match-ups. If I understand him correctly, he says both characters are very slow paced and can't do much at round start, giving him plenty of time to think through his moves which is his best strength. Interestingly, Tsubaki is his worst match-up. It didnt help Goro against Hages Tager. Hage beats Goro to win the 3/21/2015 BBCP2 Touhoku Battle to Decide The Strongest Tournament. Just imagine how much worse Tager would have beat Goro if he wasnt Makotos strongest match up! (fixed link) http://www.twitch.tv/adastream/c/6373447?t=21m47s
TagerTime Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 It kinda feels like you're bragging lol. hmmm perhaps......
CosmicShadow99 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 @TagerTime Every time I see the names in your posts I cringe a little. Reriusu....Vu~aruken Hein.... @ Skye That sucks, though It doesn't sound like the worst thing ever. Thanks for the info though.
Dreiko Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Extend? Hakumen was easily on the top of the roster, and had with character specific instant overheads on Bang for wayyy too much damage. Cp? Half of the Bang players quit and it was universally agreed that he wasn't quite as good as he had been, meanwhile Hakumen continued to be terror as the reigning god of overdrive, even losing the instant overhead the difference between the characters remained. And I have come to these conclusions: Nails are ineffectual against hakumen in anything but the classed tk Dnail pressure resets of the golden age due Zanshin simply blocking them for free. They are telegraphed, and at the ranges where they are close enough to be fast enough to be unreactable Hakumen has a great sword normal to attempt a counterpoke (which bang would normally get a whiff punish for EXCEPT that the sword cuts the nail, giving him the seal) Hakumen has superior normals on the ground and in the air, if you don't believe in the power of j.b/5b outclassing everything else by eons I don't know what to say. Hakumen's normals simply are constructed to be just about the best normals in the game, and at their effective ranges Bang doesn't have access to real tools that normally indicate a bad matchup for Hakumen (Sword Summoner, Curse) I could keep going but I'll extrapolate more later cause I have to go. Extend Bang had permanent frkz which meant 5A lead to 5k meterless anywhere and he was actually very strong in that game too, just cause Hakumen also was strong it doesn't mean the MU was in his favor necessarily or that Bang was weak. Ok first and foremost, Bang didn't get weaker in CP, he got HARDER, you had to do more difficult things but the payoff was still just as good (proportionally, since cp is a lower damage game than extend) if not better due to the option of mid-combo poison nails for that extra 800 damage. A lot of people dropped him cause they got used to playing a mid-low difficulty char and he became a high difficulty char overnight. That's really not a good indicator of his strength. The loss of frkz as a permanent tool hurt but he got enough other things to offset it, it's more of a hit in moral than anything. "Nails are ineffectual" is a ridiculous statement, I'm sorry. Yes, tossing them in a stupid or easy to cut/D way sure is ineffectual, but so is it in every other MU, people just block or dodge them in those cases, the punishment for it isn't as bad for Bang but it still is a negative so you shouldn't really base things on how people who wrongly use nails fare. The only thing is that you have to make an adjustment in HOW you utilize nails, not unlike how you do it vs Tager who can sledge them, Nu who can D through them, Valk who can't block while in wolf, etc. etc. In CP, nails for bang are just as much a tool for movement (and I don't mean the bumpers, I mean the actual nails) or for significantly better combos than they are a tool for neutral. Also, have you fought Bang in CP like, at all? If you TKdnails with Bang he flies upwards as they retain momentum in CP similar to how the A nail does. I'm sorry but I think you're going off of ancient info here. Finally, Bang only loses to Hakumen in air to air if you're pre-emptively pressing something and he flies right into it. Bang jB is superior to Haku jB in air to air and his jA is amazing too, Haku jC is annoying to deal with but Hakumen who just jump back spamming jC all day took a nerf to their heat gain so that approach is not as good any more and it still is avoidable due to Bang's superior air mobility. Hell, you can punish jC with A nail when you space it right at nearly zero-risk.
Syklone Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 ??? Because it's so different from usual? :P He was considered a bit weak in 1.1 But 2.0 buffed his neutral and damage confirms again so the initial Hotenjin Nerf is cushioned a little.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Extend Bang had permanent frkz which meant 5A lead to 5k meterless anywhere and he was actually very strong in that game too, just cause Hakumen also was strong it doesn't mean the MU was in his favor necessarily or that Bang was weak. Ok first and foremost, Bang didn't get weaker in CP, he got HARDER, you had to do more difficult things but the payoff was still just as good (proportionally, since cp is a lower damage game than extend) if not better due to the option of mid-combo poison nails for that extra 800 damage. A lot of people dropped him cause they got used to playing a mid-low difficulty char and he became a high difficulty char overnight. That's really not a good indicator of his strength. The loss of frkz as a permanent tool hurt but he got enough other things to offset it, it's more of a hit in moral than anything. "Nails are ineffectual" is a ridiculous statement, I'm sorry. Yes, tossing them in a stupid or easy to cut/D way sure is ineffectual, but so is it in every other MU, people just block or dodge them in those cases, the punishment for it isn't as bad for Bang but it still is a negative so you shouldn't really base things on how people who wrongly use nails fare. The only thing is that you have to make an adjustment in HOW you utilize nails, not unlike how you do it vs Tager who can sledge them, Nu who can D through them, Valk who can't block while in wolf, etc. etc. In CP, nails for bang are just as much a tool for movement (and I don't mean the bumpers, I mean the actual nails) or for significantly better combos than they are a tool for neutral. Also, have you fought Bang in CP like, at all? If you TKdnails with Bang he flies upwards as they retain momentum in CP similar to how the A nail does. I'm sorry but I think you're going off of ancient info here. Finally, Bang only loses to Hakumen in air to air if you're pre-emptively pressing something and he flies right into it. Bang jB is superior to Haku jB in air to air and his jA is amazing too, Haku jC is annoying to deal with but Hakumen who just jump back spamming jC all day took a nerf to their heat gain so that approach is not as good any more and it still is avoidable due to Bang's superior air mobility. Hell, you can punish jC with A nail when you space it right at nearly zero-risk. There's clearly only one way to settle this, fight Mac in a FT10 and see how that goes :V
Dreiko Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 There's clearly only one way to settle this, fight Mac in a FT10 and see how that goes :V Haha, we did that a while back, though it might be time for another one. :p
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Haha, we did that a while back, though it might be time for another one. :p I'd watch it....I could potentially stream it too.
C0R Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 The kneejerk reaction of "you obviously don't know something/haven't thought about this at the depth I have" comes up every time. Literally every time someone brings up a point that doesn't come into line with someone else's perceived expectations. And yes, while knowledge shapes your conclusions, just because we don't come to the same ones it doesn't mean that i am lacking in knowledge. Maybe it can go vice versa, maybe someone might have an overly optimistic opinion because they don't understand the game as well. Think about why I'm saying what I'm saying. If a character is harder to execute, resulting in the same output, you are forced to invest more effort to execute them. Look at CS2 Jin, CS2 Noel. These characters aren't the best, but they are really, really easy. Why do you think you saw Jin/Noel in the high spectrums of most tier lists when Carl went basically unmentioned aside from the footnote of "secret S tier if anyone played him lololol". It's fine to think about bang being theoretically as strong, sure. Where is he in tournaments? Where is he on highly circulated tier lists for 1.1? The answer would be "not very good". Dora himself told me this in person at Evo. "I don't feel bang is very strong compared to CSX! Bang is goldfish rah rah rah" and so forth.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 The kneejerk reaction of "you obviously don't know something/haven't thought about this at the depth I have" comes up every time. Literally every time someone brings up a point that doesn't come into line with someone else's perceived expectations. Think about why I'm saying what I'm saying. If a character is harder to execute, resulting in the same output, you are forced to invest more effort to execute them. Look at CS2 Jin, CS2 Noel. These characters aren't the best, but they are really, really easy. Why do you think you saw Jin/Noel in the high spectrums of most tier lists when Carl went basically unmentioned aside from the footnote of "secret S tier if anyone played him lololol". It's fine to think about bang being theoretically as strong, sure. Where is he in tournaments? Where is he on highly circulated tier lists for 1.1? The answer would be "not very good". Dora himself told me this in person at Evo. "I don't feel bang is very strong compared to CSX! Bang is goldfish rah rah rah" and so forth. Woah, hold up. I've only been playing since CSX, but wasn't Noel kinda busted in CS2?
Dreiko Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 What we're talking about here is the MU, a char who is low tier is also capable of having beneficial matchups so just showing Bang to be weaker, even if it were true, wouldn't necessarily mean the actual MU is bad for him. Bang was harder but the output was just as good if not better, while this doesn't mean the char is all that better now, it also doesn't mean he's bad enough that half of the playerbase would need to drop him and pick up Jin or Tao, either. There's a logical middle ground here between the two. Look, I always said he is B tier in cp, you're not showing me anything new here, he still can have a few good MUs. He was bottom 3 in ct and yet his MU with the goddess Nu was actually one of her worst ones. (still in her favor though)
C0R Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 What we're talking about here is the MU, a char who is low tier is also capable of having beneficial matchups so just showing Bang to be weaker, even if it were true, wouldn't necessarily mean the actual MU is bad for him. I can definitely get behind this to a degree. No matter how good µ could ever be I'll still walk into a tournament and be like "oh shit Jin, that's going to be a problem, I don't like fighting Jin, he has a lot of great tools that beat mine" Sure. At the same time, if I have really strong µ fighting just-ok Jin, I'd be more comfortable with it. There's a perceptible difference in how a strong character fights a weaker characters, it's tangible in things like damage and abare, on if he needs meter to combo midscreen in the version or not. Even putting these concepts aside, and I'd love to run through a dissertation on why exactly I think Hakumen does well against Bang, but this isn't the time or place for that, Bang would have an INNATE problem with Hakumen simply because in every version of the game that Bang's been good, well, Hakumen's usually a little better right? Woah, hold up. I've only been playing since CSX, but wasn't Noel kinda busted in CS2? Yeah totally. But let's look at how the balance progressed over time. Easy characters jump out of the screen on week/month 1. But right before CSX release I don't think anyone thought she was as good as Litchi/Valk/Hazama/Makoto/Tao. Same with Jin, he's a solid, really strong character but... he's not at the level of the characters I brought up previously.
Dreiko Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Even putting these concepts aside, and I'd love to run through a dissertation on why exactly I think Hakumen does well against Bang, but this isn't the time or place for that, Bang would have an INNATE problem with Hakumen simply because in every version of the game that Bang's been good, well, Hakumen's usually a little better right? The only exception to this is CS1 and now I believe CPE (huzzah for A tier Bang). Theoretically Bang was better than him in CT but I think they were about even. Such a dark era. :P (also, I'm expecting TD to show up and again wonder what to do with all this on-topic-ness, new game expectations hype is real)
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I believe those are from the results after EVO from last year.
DJ_Blactricity Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 They are east and west japan tier lists http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/sep/04/blazblue-chrono-phantasma-consolidated-tier-lists-eastern-and-western-japan-ft-garireo-dogura-and-more/ I wish their was more info on their viewpoints. Who the sides consider well rounded differ.
Nakkiel Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Extend Bang had permanent frkz which meant 5A lead to 5k meterless anywhere and he was actually very strong in that game too, just cause Hakumen also was strong it doesn't mean the MU was in his favor necessarily or that Bang was weak. during CSE dora himself said that hakumen was one of bang's worst matchups, take that as you will lol
Errol Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 dora has also said bang rachel is hard for bang then eliminated N-O from evo, beat him in a first to 10, and beat him again in another tournament in CP2 so let's not put him up on a pedestal wait for skd
Nakkiel Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 well at EVO he said rachel was free so.. lol that was really not my point anyways, i think it was pretty clear what was intended by the statement edit: that is to say, if the best/one of the best players of a character has a strong opinion regarding a MU that they've played way more at a higher level, there's probably some merit behind it and you should consider the 'why'
Errol Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I actually have no idea what you intended by the statement. That's ok though.
Nakkiel Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Well I explained it and honestly you should probably try a little harder to understand something before you post a disagreement with it. If you didn't understand it's intent, why weigh in on it?
Errol Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I thought you intended it as an appeal to authority, and it seems like that is what you did intend. I said I didn't understand because you said 'that was not my point anyway', which threw me off. Your saying that he said rachel was free at evo speaks to my point. which is who knows wtf it means when you say dora said this at this time.
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