Hellmonkey

Nice update. Have you asked any of the top players what they think will happen to GG?

If you throw in your airthrow at different times I could see it working though, since they can miss the timing for teching the throw (it will say throw tech miss or something like this), so they have to react to it (which isn't terribly difficult, but they can't just mash tech). It appears like throws do full damage even at the end of combos like this too.

His bnb appears to be (gatling) > 5b (2hits) > 3c > otg 2b > 5c > sj j.abc jc j.bc(maybe cd?) He can do this off of 2a or 2b, also you can run up after counterhit 6B and do it. Only slightly difficult part is linking 3c to 2b. All throws are special cancellable in this game, so likewise Jin can throw>236d for example and follow up.

You totally could have shortened that to a few words

Just let the thread die at this point...

haha fucking awesome commentary caer good videos guys.

also, You're missing the point: she HAS an uppercut, and it can combo into huge damage with a charge. Parry is situational -> it shuts down options for the opponent, of course it's not the ultimate answer to everything, but to say it doesn't help her is silly. Her backdash is a hell of a lot better than most; of course every backdash can be punished but compared to Eddie's, for instance, it's roughly 8,000 times better. Nobody is arguing that she has godlike defense that nobody can ever break, but it is easy to see that it's at least a lot stronger than the characters she was being compared to.

zaido definitely knows what he's talking about ;_;

Again, I'll have to disagree. Jam's style of play is definitely different- she doesn't sit there and control space and punish you for getting near it, instead she can rush down hard and force good trades for her, and keep the pressure on without needing eddie bar or tension. She also has better options on defense than either Eddie or Testament: parry, an uppercut, a good backdash, a thin/short hitbox, and faster normals. I don't believe you can accurately say one style is inherently stronger than the other, it depends completely on the player's specific matchup knowledge and how well they can execute.

This applies to all of the "high tier" characters, don't fool yourself. For all the extra trouble Jam has due to not having projectiles/etc to help her out (neither does Slayer), she gets either better normals, better defense, or better movement in return. I also disagree with your point about mixups not meaning much at high level play because the opponents know them well enough to deal with them. On the contrary, I believe every character has enough potential on offense to rape once they're ahead, whether it be directly mixing them up or shutting down their options to escape.

Keep in mind there is a lot to game balance aside from just damage and ability to mix up to deal it. A perfect example of this is Baiken, who is definitely not a weak character. She has average damage for accent core, most of which requires tension, especially against some characters, and she does not gain this tension very quickly. She has a few decent pokes but overall her options are horribly limited if she's not close in, and even then her moves are slow and she struggles. Her mixup is trash unless she has 50% and/or she's in the corner with a knockdown, and even then it has some serious flaws. The reason, of course, that she is still a strong character is that she has arguably the best defensive options in the game. My point is that defensive ability and zoning ability are every bit as important as damage. Yes, you hear people complain about top tier characters hitting the opponent once and winning, but what about when they're getting raped and reset because they have no options out, or when they get hit by something most characters wouldn't just because their hitbox is bigger, or when they can't get in because they get zoned relatively easily? (lol slayer) You rarely hear people go "wow, that character has no way in!" because they consider them easy or strong due to their high damage/offensive ability. I believe most people take for granted that finding a way to get in and deal huge damage, even with the "best" characters in the game, is often every bit as hard as dealing with them with "lower tier" characters. Every character in the game has numerous strengths and flaws, and each of these components contribute to balance depending solely on how the players utilize them. Having superior matchup knowledge/execution will always always always give you an advantage in any matchup.

Having you question everything I say about the Japanese community when you know absolutely nothing about it is trolling. You're asking me to prove a point that something ISN'T being discussed anymore. The proof is that the discussion is no longer there, which you somehow expect me to find quotes about from top players? Your ignorance regarding the Japanese GG community is painfully obvious. You're asking me to give names of top players who added to the wiki, when almost EVERYTHING in the online community is done anonymously. I even went as far to translate the article which sums up their attitude and you question that. (hilarious) You're a fool, please stop. Could you please provide some proof that discussing tiers is useful? Can you provide some proof that this thread is effective at all in outlining the strengths and weaknesses of each character compared to the rest of the cast? Doesn't look to me like it's been useful at all! Have any quotes from top players supporting your statements?

my duty? Don't patronize me. I've brought forth plenty of evidence, all of which you have so graciously ignored or felt was beneath you since you continue asking for it. Seriously don't even respond to my posts if you're just going to disagree and question my sources when you have none and don't know anything about what you criticize. You're a bad troll. Perhaps you aren't aware of how wikis work, or that GG wikis are easily the best centralized source of information for the game anywhere. I'm really curious as to how you feel qualified enough to post with such an arrogant tone.

Context was provided in my two posts leading up to that one. edit: Wait, what? You didn't even quote the whole line. "if there had been some context provided, such as the tiers were hotly debated until roughly some interval in time, when there became a general consensus on some opinion, and then discussion dropped off" like when I said "The threads that were extremely active with said discussion are nowhere to be found these days." right after it? (when a thread is nowhere to be found on a forum, it means discussion dropped off!) The reason I took the time to translate the Wiki article was to show the general consensus. Did you even read the posts? What are you trying to say?

Top player seeding is absolutely necessary. Agreed.

Stuck. Rather than specifying rules about having a laptop/microphone/etc, I think instead we should specify how the tournament organizers are decided, how to make sure everyone knows who they are, and who to go to if they have questions before or at the tournament. Good tournament organizers will know how best to seed players and deal with whatever comes up, the important part is making sure all "majors" have multiple competent/unbiased people who contribute to this. How about some rules about stating who is planning to run/make brackets & who will help them out x weeks/days before an event (perhaps proportional to how big it is expected to be). Perhaps some set rules on DQing people would be useful too, so there will be no complaints when/if it has to happen.

The proof is the absence of said discussion. I challenge you to find recent meaningful discussion on GGAC tiers anywhere. The threads that were extremely active with said discussion are nowhere to be found these days. With a quick look at the wiki: A quick translation: "Basically, every character is strong. To a certain extent the characters are totally balanced. The main reason being that various things related to ranking the characters are broken it seems. - In reality, for being able to make distinctions between tiers, there is no big difference between the characters. (at least not nearly as badly at reload or slash) --- it's just repeating but, depending on player's strength any possible amount of difference between their characters can be overturned. - "All characters are strong" as in "All characters, without denial, have either huge damage or other methods of giving themselves an overwhelming advantage" it seems. In AC every character has combos that do big damage or other areas of strength, in the end it depends on the affinity with the player." Satisfied?

Quite the contrary, the players who understand that there is no benefit to discuss tiers and have stopped doing so include a majority of active players who have the ability to do so. There is very little new to add to the the discussion at this point besides recent results, and the best argument that can be made regarding those is that the tiers are extremely close and any character has the ability to win.

The main reason for tiers "shifting" is because the amount of people who care enough to give input gets reduced drastically, the list just become more biased toward those that remain. The tiers for ac especially are too close to define well in the first place, this "shift" is expected and doesn't have any significance.

The "slowdown" is called hit stop. When you hit with a move there is hit stop that freezes both the attacker and whatever is getting hit/blocking for 11-15 frames for moves level 1-5 (unless otherwise stated). You can buffer during hit stop. (baiken alpha counters are very good because she can start them during hit stop, making 10+ frame counters extremely fast when taking hit stop into consideration, also projectiles/etc that take hits are good because hit stop only affects whatever is attacking/getting attacked, so for instance when someone hits little eddie it freezes them and little eddie but not eddie himself.

This thread exists to point people to the SRK thread

I don't understand how adding FD tapping as another thing to focus on would help you pay more attention to what your opponent is doing.

Due to increased pushback and longer blockstun, it's usually easier to see tickthrow attempts when FDing. I have no idea what you mean by blocking lazily, but obviously anyone not looking to escape pressure is asking to get thrown.

I'm inclined to agree that it's worth learning but most American players can't block well in the first place. Slashbacking is flashy and specific, it's not something worth putting any significant amount of effort into if the players defense isn't totally solid otherwise.

Yet another problem with parrying unblockables: even if you manage to parry both the high and low hit of FB unblockable (when the high would hit first), if Eddie does [k] into shadow gallery as he normally would, Jam gets hit anyways by [k] after parrying before being able to act. Honestly parry does not seem like a viable way to get out of unblockables almost ever, if they are mistiming it in a way parrying becomes an easy way out there are probably even easier ways to do so.