Myoro

And if that's not enough, j.B or j.8D might allow us to get the Ideal j.236C hit (Although the way j.B is is likely to change as well. I don't want j.8D to be the answer because that'll bring the Ignis cost up to 3K IG or higher >_>) Anyway, some definite things to try. I'm getting more and more hype for 2.0 with each passing moment!

I'll take a crack at it tomorrow too! I don't believe Rel will be too hurt by those loke nerfs even if they do come to pass. I'll dedicate myself to finding new stuff 'till he's twice as strong as 1.1 Rel. I should also investigate what we can do with 2C>IAD and other stuff that comes with the jump cancel territory. Ya know, just in case. What I'm hoping for is the revival of that Airdash>j.236C(Launches the opponent the opposite way Relius is facing)~214A (Ignis knocks the opponent back at Relius which allows him to pick it up with 5B or whatever upon landing) This would vastly improve our damage as we could get j.236C, 6C, 41236B, and 236C in the same meterless combo midscreen.

The plural for Relius is a problem for another time. I'm primarily talking about 41236B>3C sometimes causing the 3C to whiff, I want to know exactly when it will or won't work before I fully rely on it, or how to get it to work every time. Reli? Reli-i? Reliuses? Relius? Masked Perverts? Strangely enough I tend to fight a load of Makotos... Maybe I'm picking up all the ones you're missing. Important edit!!!1: So I errored on writing the solo combo scipt with jump cancel 2C>tkj.236C. I wrote 5B>6B>5C(1)>2C>TKj.236C>2C>6C>41236B>3C. What I meant to write was a much more impressive 5B>6B>5C(1)>2C>TKj.236C>2C>236C>665B>2C>6C>41236B>3C. I corrected it in my OP.

For me the biggest offender is Makoot Nanoot, we need to do some investigations into this. Can't have faulty Oki right?

So today I learned that 5B>[6D>665AAA]x3>3C>2363214C>665AA>OD>632146D and 5AAA>[6D>665AAA]x2>3C>2363214C>665AA>OD>632146D works So if you ever feel the mighty need to give someone a good slap here ya go. first thing does 3.3K second does 2.7ish, both cost 100 meter + OD, but you can chop off bits at the end to accommodate your resources. Should work the same with 2A on crouch for less damage and tougher inputs Also for some reason 5B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C works on Tao, but when I start with j.C>6B or j.C>5B>6B she'll just float over the ending 3C. Halp? Also also, assuming we keep jump cancel 2C from the loke, 5B>6B>5C(1)>2C>TKj.236C>2C>236C>2C>6C>41236B>3C could work (But again tao techs my 3C when I try it supplementing my 2C>TKj.236C with 2C>Rapid>TKj.236C...) If it does work it'll do 3346 damage + whatever 3C would do, I of course can't accurately get meter from this. Crush trigger instead of 41236B will guaranteed get 3C oki.

Drowning wouldn't stop a real pro. Oxygen is for the weak. I oughta monitor my pings that way. Sounds nifty. =?

GGs Errol! I think you and I may have very different Idea's of what constitutes bad lag. For me it has to feel like you're under water. ^_^" You are easily among the best Rachels I've had the pleasure of fighting. Mad respect. For every inappropriate 6C/2C Necro does I'm somewhere doing 10 inappropriate led leys! XD

Matches still goin' but I thought I might just say that you're pretty dang great Errol. Hope my conn isn't too horrid.

Ah thanks for the replies guys! This had me baffled for awhile.

Actual story of my life.

I leaned from that too, but we don't need to rehash old discussions that have had a satisfying resolution do we? And as much as I love to discuss all things Relius, I think we should probably stop hogging the main game-play thread, unless we need a broader opinion on something important, we should probably move things to the Rel thread. You, me Necro, TD, and the occasional lovely guest are all that venture there to post things anyhow.

S'not your fault, It's mostly mine. You said a thing, I snagged on and turned it into a discussion. But heck, I'll take credit for it. I learned way more from each post than another 5 pages of this: would have ever given me.

Well my argument was that his mix-up was weak, but I guess I didn't have mix-up well defined then. And enough things I've been unaware of have come to light about the character I play more than any other, to the point where I definitely need to sort out the facts and reconsider my own stance on things. I'll concede that I was wrong or whatever makes everyone happy and move on. For me at least this hasn't been a waste of time, I've gained an immense amount of invaluable insight, and I've learned of a couple hither to unknown things about my Relius, so thanks everyone for putting up with me and discussing this to a level where I can begin to understand. I'd say we've accomplished the "Gameplay Discussion" part quite well, as much as a headache as it's probably been for everyone else here. EDIT: So the next big question is what do we talk about next? or should we just wait idly for CP2.0 news?

A little late to the fiesta there. Litchi's got a cancelable, subtle 22 frame overhead, so even without scary pressure she's got kinda fierce 50/50s. I did mention the Fuzzy quite a few times saying how it was really the exception. PS. Necro didn't say that thing, I did... I guess I just don't think of all the ways people screw themselves over while trying to escape my pressure as "My mix-up"

That was just trash talk!? 'o'!? I need to stop being so impressionable. '~'

I think I got what you mean. The threat of Ignis restricts the opponent's options to the point where people have to block, which makes him able to get people in more high/low mix-up situations. Without other options the opponent is actually jammed into my 50/50. I agree 500,000,000%. What I'm saying is even if they end up blocking Rel's mix-up, his mix-up still is the super obvious scorpion tail and jump normals vs lows and requires the opponent to make an easy mode judgement error before the egg timer named Ignis runs out, or dips so low that we're at too low risk/reward to continue. O_o" Oh really... I need to pay more attention to who's who outside of the Relius players...

Ah... I need to start paying attention to PSNs. By the way SKD, you made me and my friends very happy with that stint as "SKD's Final Form" Azrael. Infinite points for getting Love Phantom off in a real match. My Azrael friend Idolizes you for that. Right now I'm looking through the scope of the most universal option, blocking. 4, 1, 4A+B, and 1A+B. If you have good enough reactions to clear a beginner level DDR stage, blocking Rel outside of the corner shouldn't be super scary.

Yeah, like Not_Lunaris said, the ability to make anything safe is good for Mix-up. What'd SKD say? I musta' missed that.

This is kinda what I meant by quantity mix-up vs quality mix-up. Your stuff is easy to block, so you keep trying till they trip up real bad and you get through or they get impatient and do something punishable. '3' The difference between the two for me is that for each pressure reset Rel does, the reward for breaking through their guard goes down, whereas tao's limitation is that she's less safe and has way less HP and confirms into less. '<' I'm not claiming to understand how Tao works BTW -_-"

myoron. Like myoro +moron? Are you really that pissed O_o"? (I mean it's a sick burn but still... =/) Yeah I get all of that, and shoot I even agree with it. It's common knowledge that different aspects of a character's gameplay help one another. Yeah we can get people blocking and yeah, you can't easily disrespect our mix-up with dashes and crap, but when it comes down to blocking it high vs low vs mash vs grab break, I don't think it's nearly as potent. Does having Ignis keeping us safe make any of our mix-up options less react-able? not at all unless you're doing some sneaky exclamation mark hiding with certain Ignis sprites. To me and I'm guessing to Necro, Mix-up is about how effective you are at cracking through the opponent's guard once you have them blocking. We don't have instant overheads, lightning quick command grabs, Valk 50/50s, or Black Hole, so opening a blocking opponent up is difficult for Relius, especially inexpensively. Yes other characters need to take WAY more risks in pressure, YES other characters are far easier to disrespect or escape, Yes we do have an A+ set of highs and lows and other normals. But just reacting to our high/low/grab/unblockable stuff leaves us at a big loss. I'm not trying to be malicious here or anything. Thanks for reading and responding. I think I understand your position now. -_- The sincerity thing was addressing crossfire who seemed to think we were playing some sort of game by posting our thoughts here. I didn't believe you were posting anything for any malignant reason.

Newer than that one stream they showed? nope. But in that stream it looked hecka nerfed, with more recovery and less OD time, so I can go on with living life not worrying about random ODRaid punishing my 5A>5B for 6K. The way Ara's OD worked in the loke, ODRaid will still be useful as a reversal if they have any curse gauge.

Even if they do that, they always do seem to leave a couple things outta their change logs. (Or at least that's how it was for 1.1) As it is now they seem to be keeping hushed up about a lot, so we'll prolly just have to wait until October 9th

It'll prolly be a week or two after the release before all the changes are spotted. Keep in mind that they only did one loke, so there's bound to be bugs and unbalanced stuff, so we'll prolly end up with 2.1 by the time it hits consoles. As for if it'll be good or not? Well we're all hopeful! Shame you didn't get into P4A2, I'mma be picking it up soon when it comes to US stores.

Wait wait wait. What's all of this. I'm at least being sincere here. I think Necro too. If there's something so obvious that these less than wordy responses are nessisary I'd like to know the whole story.

What you're describing is his pressure really. That safety is what puts him above the rest, because as long as he has Ignis out, he does what he wants with neigh impunity. HOWEVER, there is a clear difference between pressure and mix-up. What Relius does not have much of is mix-up, His mix-up options are the most obvious overhead in the world 6A, falling air normal vs empty jump>low, slow as sin unblockables, and cross-up air normals off of 663C>jump cancel. None of these are particularly overwhelming (Although with the addition of some 214B/2D gimmicks cross-up air normals can become a little more ambiguous.) Now here's the other rub, unlike many other characters, the longer Relius has you in his pressure, the more disadvantaged he becomes. at 10K IG he can do 2Combos + 2 IG okis, but with further pressure expenditures he has to relinquish those. With other characters, they gain resources through their less safe pressure (Namely heat, but others gain other favorable circumstances) and are given stronger mix-up tools as well. Once Relius loses Ignis he can ether force the opponent into an even easier to block blockstring yet infinitely riskier to gain resources and keep the opponent away from his bad defense, he can run for it, or he can accept fate and just block. In short, Relius is kinda a quantity of mix-up>quality of mix-up character. Important EDIT: Also yeah, that standard is subjective, but it's approximately where I'd want everyone to be ideally. I'm not claiming that it's the only way to want things or anything of that sort Also let's keep things civil guys.