zeth07

I wasn't trying to quote you as in taking what you said directly, but more just to go into that kinda discussion. Like I said, I don't have any real numbers for the entrants but I just kinda used it as a "visual" example that BB's tournament support wasn't all that bad compared to it's own popularity and relative to other games the same way. EVO obviously wants to have the most popular games and I don't blame them, but what I'm kinda getting at is if it was a case of "the bb scene not showing up" and then going by X number of entrants compared to the other games, that isn't exactly a fair judgement to make. My point about MK is kinda for that reason as well. I hate just throwing random numbers around but for "arguments" sake, if BB got 200 and MK got 400, but BB sold 200k and MK sold 1mil, clearly the tournament support for BB was more than MK in terms of the scenes showing up, just not by the raw number of entrants. Same could be said for Tekken 6 as well, but now they are going with SCV which makes sense because it is new. But it is kinda a moot point, and I do agree that BB can probably get better support in the long run.

If you do look at the turnouts / relative to sales I would think quite the opposite, if anything BB actually shows pretty good support considering how many people actually bought the game. That's why I think it isn't "fair" to judge a game solely on # of entrants in a general sense when that entrants to sales ratio could possibly be BETTER or on par with the more popular games. While I don't know the exact numbers, wasn't MK's EVO 2K11 entrants relatively close to BB's? And yet MK sold probably a million while BB only sold a few hundred thousand at best. And yet BB showed stronger support, but of course gets shafted (possibly due to money). Obviously if we are looking at "raw" numbers as a tournament organizer then yes BB gets lower numbers compared to the more popular games, but in terms of the actual BB scene supporting the game I don't think we are necessarily lacking in that department compared to other games. That's not to say it couldn't be better, but people have to really consider the numbers we are actually working with here. Just as an example (not real numbers), ~2mil sales / 2000 EVO entrants = .01% "tournament player support" ~200k sales / 200 EVO entrants = .01% "tournament player support" Now like I said, if we did that compared to MK, I would think BB's would actually be better, but maybe it is on par with SF/Marvel or maybe a little behind. But realistically there's nothing we can do about that, the game more than likely isn't going to become hugely popular. So it's just a matter of showing even more tournament support from the hardcore players. As for the GG thing, I think the reason it comes up is because the GG players are "closer to home". Some are still even BB players as well. So part of that is having your own "community" hating on the game doesn't reflect well from the outside looking in. It's one thing to have SF/Marvel people hate on the game on SRK, but when people are hating on the game on Dustloop and in the BB forums themselves at times it's not quite the same. If it was any other game people would probably say to take it somewhere else or "then why are you here", but that's the whole point the GG and BB community are mixed in together to a certain degree. So when talking about trying to help the community GROW, it sure isn't helping our cause. I'm not saying everyone has to like it and they can't show their distaste for it, but when it's within our "community" as a whole it's not exactly a good look to get other people interested in the game. It's kinda like a big brother beating on the little brother for no good reason just because he can, even if the little brother didn't do anything "wrong". The other thing I would add is that BB doesn't have any "notable figures" that casual players can relate to or watch. SF/Marvel has a bunch of different players that put themselves out there and have "personalities", or produce shows for people to watch. BB doesn't really have that. Xie is sort of doing things with Beginner Mode, but I'm more or less talking about it from an "entertainment" stand point, as in getting people interested in playing the game. A lot of our "content" seems to only appeal to our own community and maybe not so much the casual players, to try and pull them in and get them interested. Obviously there's some money involved with the SF/Marvel people but even some of the other guys aren't really doing "shows" but are still kinda personalities that people can talk about, Marn being an example I guess.

Also because of the Web Nail change.

Reading comments like these makes me feel partially responsible, and one of the various reasons why I'm reluctant to even bother organizing anything on netplay for the "community" in the future. If it's somehow hurting the scene like stickbug mentioned as well, then it would be for the best not to do anything and as I said is part of the reason why I haven't done anything in a while, so people are forced to go to offline events if they want that kinda thing. Whatever helps the greater good I guess.

Just wanted to say I appreciate you taking the time to write all of that and putting everything out there.

This guide is for Extend not CS2.

Does anyone know where I can see the number of entrants each game got for EVO2K11? I'm just curious to see how many entrants games got relative to the number of sales. If SF and Marvel sell millions and pull a few thousand, they can't honestly expect BlazBlue to pull big numbers off a much smaller "player pool" to begin with. Where maybe Mortal Kombat and Tekken 6 (or Soul Calibur in the case of EVO2k12) sell millions but pull roughly the same number as BlazBlue but somehow make it, it isn't exactly a fair comparison of BlazBlue players not showing up if in fact that "ratio" is on par or even better than some of the other games in theory. I know it's meaningless in the grand scheme of things and isn't going to change anything, but it's something I'd like to actually see with actual (estimated) numbers to compare.

Well if it's me personally, Omni is better than me and plays the game way the fuck more than me. But that's not the issue here. I honestly don't understand where you're coming from now, I've explained it as clearly as possible. The skill level of the opponent means pretty much nothing when all that matters is touching them and doing a combo, why is that so hard to understand? How exactly is it any different than landing any other mix-up / combo in the game? It all comes back to you thinking either A) Bang somehow can't hit someone while in FRKZ or B) You think people can't do the combos in a match. So it really makes no sense to me why you think this way. But I've said what I'm going to say on the topic, someone else can explain or do whatever with you. DaiAndOh feel free to delete my posts since they aren't really helpful to the topic at hand.

Except it pretty much IS just about doing the combos, cause that's basically what you're saying people can't do in a real match. Whether or not the player dies in the process of trying to hit the opponent is rather moot because people WILL get hit by Bang while he's in FRKZ at some point so the opportunity to land the combos are always going to be there which in turn makes it JUST about landing the combos as I said and as it is implied you are saying. Of course sometimes the Bang player will die too but you make it seem like Bang players never hit the opponent once he's in FRKZ which I find hard to imagine. I just think it's incredibly naive that you think none of "us" can do it in a real match. If you've looked through this thread or watched any Extend Bang matches you've probably seen that he gets seals easily. So getting FRKZ isn't an issue. Then if you activate it in a proper situation, you're basically getting a free hit from the "freeze" or you're probably going to have them in a mix-up situation that will be hard to block for an extended period of time. So landing a hit while FRKZ isn't an issue either. So again, it just comes down to being able to do the combos, which anyone who spends the time in training mode long enough will be able to do even in a REAL MATCH. Why is that so hard to believe? I mean this in the nicest way possible, I hope at some point you play against a Bang either offline or on XBL that does one of those FRKZ combos against you and I hope the salt just pours out of you when you get j.4C'd like 9 times in a row before dying, lol.

I don't have Extend. But at least one of the combos listed from the jbbs list has Rachel and Valkenhayn at least that gives 3 seals off 5A with 6C>j.D>Web Nail included so that part should work somehow. But I'm not entirely sure what kind of combo you're even referring to with "non-dash 5A starter" cause that could mean a lot.

And yet you see a video of kaeru doing it in the 1st post... You would think he would be perfectly capable of landing it in a real match by practicing it enough in training mode. You guys are either overestimating how hard the combos are or underestimating some of the Bang players who put time into the game. I'll give you two reasons why you might not see someone land the whole thing in a real match, 1) Opponent bursts as soon as you touch them or midway through the combos which leads to #2 or you end up getting killed. 2) They die before it's completely over. I can tell you in CS2 for me personally by the time I get 4 Seals + FRKZ and touch someone without them bursting, the opponent will die from a much more simple combo so there's no need for me to do any kind of loops. In CSE that might not be the case but I'll see that for myself. I just think it's pretty naive to think other players that aren't Dora or Nezu can't pull off FRKZ combos in a real match.

Why wouldn't people be able to do FRKZ combos in a real match? Ever since CS1 there have been j.4C "loops" so it's really no different. And for most of the people who've played Bang it really shouldn't be hard at all since the "hard" part is just doing the same things over and over again. Although I guess one thing that might stop people is the fact that the other person might die before the combo/s even finish.

I know he said he was gonna add stuff like 4 seal combos, but since I've been keeping track of CSE combos I might as well post them to start it out at least. Mid-Screen: ・(CH) 2D>j.D>2B>5D>j.B>j.4C>j.C = [~2,000] was 2,075 / 3 Seals ・(CH) 2D>j.D>Web Nail>6D>Web Nail>5C>6D (Character Specific) = [?] / 4 Seals ・(CH) 2D>j.D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>5D = [?] / 4 Seals ・(CH) 6D>d.2B>5D>j.B>j.4C>j.C = [2,018] / 2 Seals ・(CH) 6D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>5D = [1,364] / 4 Seals ・(CH) j.D>d.5C>6D>623B = [?] was 1,986 / 2 Seals ・Throw>Air Dash>j.4C>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>5D = [?] New Combo / 3 Seals ・Throw>Air Dash>j.4C>Web Nail>6D>j.D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>5D = [?] New Combo / 4 Seals ・(Back to Corner) (CH) 2D>dash under>5B>6C>j.4C>j.623B>d.6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.5C>6D>(623B/Bumper/Mix-up) = [3,261?] was 3,582 (3,748 with 623B) / 3 Seals ・5A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>5D = [?] New Combo / 3 Seals ・5A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>X (d.6D blue beat) = [?] New Combo / 4 Seals? ・5A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>5D～ (Rachel,Arakune,Tager,Valkenhayn,Jin? Specific) = [?] New Combo / 3 Seals ・5A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>Web Nail>d.6D>j.D = [1,901?] / New Combo / 3 Seals ・5A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>Web Nail>d.6D>j.D>Web Nail>5D = [1,919] / New Combo / 4 Seals ・2A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>6D>Web Nail>5D (Character Specific) = [?] New Combo / 3 Seals ・2A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>5D>X (j.4C teched) = [?] New Combo / 3 Seals ・(CH) 6A>5A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>5D = [?] New Combo / 3 Seals ・5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>5D>X (tech) = [?] New Combo / 4 Seals ・5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>d.6D>j.C = [?] New Combo / 3 Seals ・j.4B>5B>2B>5D>j.4C>Web Nail>RC>j.D>Web Nail>d.5C>6D>X = [2,716] / 3 Seals ・(~50% or FC) (FC) 3C>(RC) d.2B>5B>j.4C>IAD dj.4C>dj.623B>d.6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.5C>6D>623B = [?] was 3,524 / 2 Seals Near Corner: ・(FC or *RC*) 3C>(RC)>2B>5B>j.4C>j.623B>d.6C>j.D>Web Nail>6D>Web Nail>6D>Web Nail>5D = [3,279] / 4 Seals ・(CH) 2D>j.D>2B>5D>j.623B>Wall Bounce>5D = [?] was 2,024 / 4 Seals ・Throw>Air Dash>j.4C>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>X (Blue Beat d.6D)>Web Nail>5D>X (tech) = [?] New Combo / 4 Seals? standing ・5A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>X (5C teched before) = [?] / 3 Seals ・2A>5B>2B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>5D>X = [1,713] / 4 Seals ・j.B>j.4C>5B>6C>j.623B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>6D>Web Nail>6D>Web Nail>5D = 4 Seals crouching ・5A>5B>2B>5D>j.B>j.4C>j.623B>d.6D>Web Nail>d.6D>Web Nail>5D = [2,197?] / 4 Seals Corner: ・5C>5D>j.623B>6C>j.D>Web Nail>5C>6D>623B = [~2,700] New Combo? / 3 Seals ・6D>623B>2B>5D>j.4C>j.623B>dash under>5A>5B>j.A>j.B>j.4C>dj.4C>dj.C = [?] was 3,618 / 2 Seals ・(CH) 6D>d.2B>5B>j.B>j.4C>j.623B>reverse 6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.5C>6D = [?] was 3,213 / 3 Seals ・(CH) 6D>d.2B>5D>j.4C>j.623B>reverse 6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.5C>6D = [?] was 3,017 / 4 Seals crouching ・5B>2B>5D>j.623B>reverse 6C>j.D>Web Nail>d.6D>X (burst) = [?] / 3 Seals ・j.4B>5B>2B>5D>j.623B>reverse 6C>j.D>Web Nail>j.D>Web Nail>5D = [3,108?] / 4 Seals That's pretty much all the ones I found looking through the list I have. These are just from what I've seen in videos which means there's probably others off other hits that I just haven't made note of yet. Or you can probably look at starters of one combo and see that it works on other stuff. Some of the mid-screen stuff probably works in the corner as well or just needs to be slightly adjusted. I left in the other seal combos just in case some of them are character specific that aren't noted yet. I'd say there's a good chance he can get 4 Seals off just about everything. ****It should be noted that you LOSE OKI on a lot of the seal combos now, but they sort of become tech traps, although I've rarely seen them work. I've seen j.4C or TK'd Fire Punch after 5D enders or even IAD Command Throws. But it is something to think about and keep in mind.****

I have a 42" Sony LCD (KDF-E42A10) I bought it 6 years ago before Xbox 360 came out because I wanted an HDTV to be able to get the most out of the new systems. I did very little research besides what was the difference between Plasma, LCD, and DLP. I knew Plasma was out cause back then they would still mention possible burn-in. So between LCD and DLP I believe I read LCD lasted longer in terms of needing to replace the bulb or whatever. Then I picked the Sony mainly because I've had relatively good experience with their products so I figured might as well get something good quality. I never bothered to look into whether or not it had lag at the time since I just wanted a nice HDTV for 360/PS3. Ended up spending like $1,800 on it at the time. It unfortunately doesn't have 1080p since that wasn't the standard kinda like it is now, so I only got 720p/1080i and below. In my experience there doesn't seem to be any noticeable lag. I even tested it out with the GH2 or Rock Band calibration and I'm pretty sure it showed up as 0ms or something really low. It is 6 years old or more now so you probably won't be finding this TV anywhere, so I guess it doesn't really matter, lol. I actually have/use an EVO monitor for my PC monitor but I don't even get much use out of it in terms of gaming. I actually had a chance to get a new TV for Christmas but passed because I wanted to make absolutely sure it didn't have input lag and also wanted it to be a good one ( not $300-$600 more than likely ). So in trying to look into what are some good HDTVs for gaming nowadays, I came across this site: http://www.hdplasmatvreviews.com/best-gaming-tv/ Maybe it'll help you out.

Nice job putting this together.

It's probably universal in CSE now. I'm pretty sure it didn't work at all against Ragna in CS2. In CS2 I know for a fact Jin and I believe Hakumen required a d.5A when not near the corner. And Lambda + Tsubaki didn't require a dash at all. That combo didn't work on a lot of other characters in CS2, but there were different versions of the relaunch combos that did work on other characters. But it's all a moot point now if it is basically universal in CSE and just a difference of it needing a d.5A or just 5A between ALL characters. Someone can keep testing on all the characters just to confirm though.

When you guys were playing this was all I could think about after huey switched to valk, I thought it was pretty funny.

Of course, the example you just said is fine because that might be what's necessary to win. But we were talking about what was logical, and your other example isn't what I would consider a good choice. If you have a huge life lead, the logical thing to do imo wouldn't be to take some huge risk that could turn the match around in the other person's favor just because you feel like being ballsy. Ballsy doesn't equal logical imo even if you can afford to do so in that example.

But that was my point entirely, those variables do exist which is why I wasn't trying to get into that part of the discussion lol.

I don't want this to devolve into theory fighter stuff too much mainly because there's so many variables and scenarios that we can apply that to. To me the idea of what's logical even with a good read would be doing whatever puts you in the most beneficial position to win the match and the least amount of risk to lose the match. What if your good read was wrong since there's obviously a chance of that? Are you going to lose the match because you took the biggest risk for the highest reward? Or are you going to do something that will either win you the match / keeping you at an advantage or instead of outright losing just reset it back to neutral or maybe have less health than you did before instead of them blowing you the fuck up cause you took a big gamble? I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer. I'm just saying what I think is "logical". I'm sure you can think of some sports examples this can apply to.

My point was just that "playing logically" and then using "unconventional solutions" don't really go hand in hand in my opinion in the way he used them. It's like opposite sides of the coin. You are either going to use "good judgment" and the safe option or you're going to take risk for a better reward. Of course there's different solutions, but what I would call playing logically, isn't using something that puts yourself in more danger, you're just gambling on the risk/reward factor and hoping you make the right read. Playing logically would be to take the safest option possible that puts yourself in the best possible situation to win the match. There's always a chance you'll guess right with some crazy move, but it doesn't mean it was the smartest thing to do, which is what my point is based on what he said. But again, I guess it's just differing opinions of what something means.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think you're looking at it from a different perspective compared to myself at least. Using "unconventional solutions" doesn't really fit "playing logically" imo. Just because something worked, doesn't mean it was the "right" thing to do in a given circumstance which is really what it sounds like you're saying which is why I think it doesn't make sense. A kind of random and horrible example would be if you watch gootecks / mike ross when they do those excellent adventures or whatever. You have gootecks who plays pretty much completely fundamental and never does anything crazy (playing logically), while Mike Ross plays kinda more open and does seemingly whatever he wants (playing unconventional). They can both do this because they have a complete understanding of the game. (Ignoring that it's netplay, just realize people do play differently since I've given numerous other examples anyway) What makes fighting games fun, is the fact that people CAN play the game differently. You're given a set of tools, but how you use them is what matters and what determines your own playstyle. If everyone just played logically, all the Bangs would just play like Minami, it's fine cause he plays solid, but that's not the only way to play the game even if it is effective. It just sounds like people are downplaying the "creativity" that's there because it isn't the basic fundamentals the core gameplay is about.

Considering it is a fighting game, I would say being innovative with something or coming up with a trick/gimmick/setup is actually being creative within the context of a fighting game. Of course there's a limit put on the player due to there being a "system" you have to go by, but that doesn't mean there's no creativity at all or the things people can do within the game aren't creative. I would say that actually proves there is creativity because there is a limit to what you can do but finding new ways to use those things is entirely possible to a certain degree. I guess it just sounds like you're being really strict in terms of what's "art" or being creative, cause some of the stuff people do in fighting games is pretty damn creative within the context of a fighting game. There's always a new setup/reset/gimmick or interesting combo or whatever, even if it's not practical it's still there and it's still creative. Some of those could in fact be practical even if it is just a one time use thing in a match or maybe even once in an entire set. Just as an example, when Dora did the whiff command throw>web nail setup after an air ender in the corner, it's not something you'd automatically think of using, but it has practical application. That doesn't even have anything to do with a playing style, it's just using the tools given in a different way. I'm sure everyone here has seen an interesting setup they've never seen before, whether you were just watching a match or maybe someone else did it to you in a match and you got hit by it. Someone had to have the idea of coming up with that setup, and they were creative enough to do it. Yes it could be a trick or gimmick, but if it works even once in a match and helps you win then it served it's purpose. Of course people can just do the optimal stuff and win, but that doesn't mean there aren't any tricks that could catch your opponent off guard to win a match. I almost think people take stuff like that for granted just because the majority of us are watching the Japanese matches and see everything before we even get our hands on the game. Players don't NEED those things to win as I've said before, but just the fact that they are there and possible is what's good about it. Limiting yourself to just playing solid and using the typical stuff isn't a bad thing if it wins you matches. But it sure can't hurt to have something extra up your sleeve. I kind of look at it like if you gave a bunch of painters 1 paint brush and only a few colors to use. Even though they are limited in their tools, each painters own creativity would make their paintings different in some way, even if they all use the same fundamental painting techniques or whatever. But I don't know, maybe it's cause I play Bang and I feel like he's a character who can actually play in different "styles" depending on how you use his tools. FRKZ / Bumpers / "Normal" / A mix of everything, all of which still revolve around rushdown/mix-up. You can really see the difference when you watch certain Japanese Bang players. I guess other characters don't really have that option outside of a select few. I guess it really just comes down to what each person thinks is creative.

While I agree with you to a certain degree, I don't think it has to be that cut and dry. LK talked about it in one of his videos about some of the Japanese Hakumens. Hakumen by design is a defensive character and his tools are pretty much meant to be used as such. Yet LK even said a good number of Hakumen players were just going in and rushing down which goes against his design and "intended gameplay" I'll say. I think Lambda and Rachel are other examples, they are zoning characters but they have tools that would allow them to play a much more rushdown style, even if that goes against their design. In CT this was even more pronounced. Is it more effective to play a defensive character defensively? Of course, but it doesn't have to always be that way, which is why player's own styles are important. Outside of talking about different styles of play, there are times when just doing something out of the ordinary can help you in a match. And I'm not talking about going for a different mix-up cause the opponent is blocking the other stuff, because that's something that they could easily expect you to change to as well. I do think there should be at least a small percentage of "random" in a player's gameplay, but it's definitely not necessary to win. Like i said in the other post, from what I've seen Minami's Bang does ONLY WHAT'S NECESSARY to win, Satoshi's Bang in CS1 was the same way. Yet you watch Dora's matches or even Ryota's matches in the examples given, and they do some stuff that seems out of the ordinary and still manage to win. Both ways to play are fine.

http://youtu.be/SLJEwktr4L4 http://youtu.be/IlpbdrFcCv8 These show examples of something I've noticed from watching a lot of Japanese matches. When the top players play the game A LOT they will know that the opponent is going to do X>Y>Z and whatever options off that stuff. They are so knowledgeable of the game they know what options are coming after certain moves and can react appropriately. What I see in some matches, like Ryota's Bang in the examples, is some players will do seemingly "random" shit that ends up working because it is unexpected. I use to say it to myself all the time, "why did that work?" or "why is he doing that?", and it would seem to logically be to throw the opponent off. Unless they are just trolling outright but that's hard to tell just from watching a match. In this case and I'm guessing this is kinda what you're talking about, the most effective moves and strategies isn't the only thing you should be doing simply because the best players will KNOW you're going to be trying that stuff since they've seen it a million times. Being kinda random at times means the opponent won't be able to get a good read on what you might do. Of course there are players who just play completely solid and don't do anything crazy, and just win by outplaying and reading the opponent correctly at the right times. I don't know about other characters, but when I watch a bunch of different Bangs play, you can clearly see a difference in styles in how they play the game. If you watch Minami's Bang, then watch Ryota's, it's a huge difference. I guess my point is there's never really a "right" way to play that every person should be playing that way, instead it's more like here's the tools some tools are better than others but what you do with them is what matters.