[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!

[Red Star]

What I'm basically reading is that you guys want an already powerful throw engine better.  I can't see that happening.

Pretty sure most people don't care about Pot's Potemkin Buster. It is not his issue since a 3 frame command grab is pretty strong in GG.

2S vaccum, old heat, 5P to hit crouching characters again, maybe an overhead. Some sort of air combo. 2D being able to special cancel. Combo off slidehead knockdown.

Basically give him something from AC or AC+R. He is a solid character, but with as much nonsense as a good deal of the cast has, he just needs a little of his nonsense to contend with them.

[GKHiryu]

Why are we focusing so much on AC+(/R)? It's in the past. They didn't bring back #R just to repeat all the balance changes leading up to Xrd. Pot could be so much different and still strong. Imagine faster ICPM, 63214+K being true reversal, maybe a quicker-but-less-range 2nd version of Hammerfall? I'm throwing out stuff off the top of my head, but it's just to remind you that there's a high possibility of not getting anything from slash/ac back. I agree it's a shame. Still, if ASW wanted to make Xrd the "new best game" they would copy fatal counter and burst mechanics from BBCP, remove free braindead unblockables, add the missing cast, change YRC during move's active frames to PRC (fireballs excluded), not to mention HOLD BUTTON TO TECH IMMEDIATELY.

 

That won't happen, because in order to persuade as wide audience as possible, Xrd must clearly diffrentiate from other ASW games. Balance, moves and system must be different. That's my guess on ASW policy seeing how they leave out obvious features that have already proven to make fighting games better. And I'm not saying that to complain, something good might come out of it, but instead of focusing on what the character should get "back" we should be thinking about what new additions could be introduced.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I know we're not supposed to compare GG and BB due to potential drama, but how would copying Fatal Counter and Burst mechanics make GG the "new best game"? I personally feel like both of those systems are retarded.

[GKHiryu]

Well I do think that the way burst/overdrive works is the best comeback mechanic out of those introduced in mainstream fighters. Either a get out of jail free card or a potential game changer, albeit one that requires a lot of practice and awareness. As for FC, I mostly brought it up as a comparison to mortal counter. As it is, to me MC is ASW saying "we thought of great addition to the system in the form of FC before, but we can't use that in Xrd so let's add something else but similar".

 

Keep in mind I'm just theory crafting here. Whether those mechanics work well in BB or they are flawed, It doesn't matter from my stand point. Both the idea of certain moves being hard coded as better combo starters than others, offset by the moves' limited usability or in other way, as well as comeback feature that only works in your favor if you put a lot of work into learning to use it properly are additions to the system that, in my opinion, properly deepen the gameplay.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I just don't see a need for FC in GG. CH starters are already mad powerful, it would be overkill.

 

Both Overdrive and Burst (the way Burst works in BB, anyway) are just stupid, IMO. OD either ends up being too good, or not good enough. BB Burst is just too good in general, it's practically a no-brainer to use it.

[GKHiryu]

I think we're on both ends of spectrum, me seeing the mentioned stuff as brilliant and you seeing it as crap.

Yes, FC and OD wouldn't work in Xrd, but that's just because Xrd was not designed with them in mind. With generally shorter combos and guard gauge, additional positive damage scaler would indeed be overkill. It's the same for OD. I've no idea how OD could've worked in Xrd as it is. It probably wouldn't. (just thinking that Zato could be the tiniest bit stronger, that would probably make me drop the game) What I'm saying is that in general OD is a good feature and to have it implemented properly in hypothetical Xrd would make the game much better.

 

But honestly. What's stupid about OD? I could agree that it's stupid, because the Japanese will always strive to have a defined tier lists in their games, so by design philosophy of the devs the ODs would indeed be made in an intentionally unbalanced way. However, just the idea of OD, do you think it's stupid as well?

Also I'm really curious about your thoughts on burst. What's wrong with it?

 

I'm not saying these features should be added to Xrd, as that would indeed be stupid. I'm saying it would've been great if Xrd was designed with that in mind. Still, don't mind me. I'm the guy who thinks that if they did a carbon copy of AC+R in Unreal 4 then no work ever would have to be done on the game and it would become "as perfect as it gets".

[Maker]

I want to point out that there's likely a quiet group that dislikes the Overdrive mechanic in the last BB title. I for one wanted to like the idea but quickly lost interest because even though it opens up new routes for things it just changes the gameplay too much for me to enjoy it. One thing I liked about old FG's (yes older BB's as well) particularly GG is you got a character and a subset fighting system and that's it. Once you learned your character you could promptly just use your tools on a needed basis without having such "fancy" gimmicks as OD and what not. (Also salty about Bangs FRKZ being the OD... i was so sad) While I don't feel it detracts from the gameplay I feel it was an added mechanic that was in no way needed. It might be better if the OD's were stuited more to each character and their needs rather than being almost entirely system based.

 

While I don't like Danger Time either its a similar distaste though since its not overly important to learn specific DT stuff I'm a little better with it. 

 

As for FC in GG the same is more or less true. The simpler you keep a system once its outlined and functioning the better.

[greatfernman]

Still, don't mind me. I'm the guy who thinks that if they did a carbon copy of AC+R in Unreal 4 then no work ever would have to be done on the game and it would become "as perfect as it gets".

+R doesnt have FC or BB bursts though

[GKHiryu]

+R doesnt have FC or BB bursts though

True, but we're discussing changes to Xrd, not +R. To answer you in full - +R was the final step in evolution of X2 series. Not only was it completely incompatible with mentioned mechanics, but also its own system was strong enough to shine on its own.

[o Nereus o]

Well I do think that the way burst/overdrive works is the best comeback mechanic out of those introduced in mainstream fighters. Either a get out of jail free card or a potential game changer, albeit one that requires a lot of practice and awareness. As for FC, I mostly brought it up as a comparison to mortal counter. As it is, to me MC is ASW saying "we thought of great addition to the system in the form of FC before, but we can't use that in Xrd so let's add something else but similar".

 

Keep in mind I'm just theory crafting here. Whether those mechanics work well in BB or they are flawed, It doesn't matter from my stand point. Both the idea of certain moves being hard coded as better combo starters than others, offset by the moves' limited usability or in other way, as well as comeback feature that only works in your favor if you put a lot of work into learning to use it properly are additions to the system that, in my opinion, properly deepen the gameplay.

As much as i love BB, gonna have to agree with Titanium, we don't need BB's burst mechanic or OD. OD is REALLLY dumb as a comeback mechanic especially when you can do literally do like 10k+ with it. FC's also aren't needed because you do enough damage in GG already IMO. 

[D.R.F.]

The ability to disrespect bad bursts in GG is... pretty fun. Despite them having a strong chance to fuck you over, throwing people's bursts... is awesome. I don't want that taken out haha

[Solid Gold Wall]

Combo off slidehead knockdown.

no way, i already suffered enough in ac having to deal with that garbage

[MoralHazardPay]

OD is an interesting mechanic where you can trade defense for offense... but poorly implemented.

 

I definitely prefer GG bursts, although I'd like if they had a bit of landing recovery to make a baited burst on the ground easier to punish without having to go for the throw

[fishnet]

BEDMAN

1. Needs ability to do Deja Vu in the air

2. More priority on air bed smash

3. Faster movement on air dash

4. Clock super needs larger radius

5. Dust needs larger range

6. Deja Vu to be less telegraphed

[GKHiryu]

BEDMAN

1. Needs ability to do Deja Vu in the air

2. More priority on air bed smash

3. Faster movement on air dash

4. Clock super needs larger radius

5. Dust needs larger range

6. Deja Vu to be less telegraphed

I'd love to see air Task C beating nobiru... More range on dust would be golden, but at least we can always go for j.D if we need them overheads. Can't really agree on clock overdrive needing buffs. It's good even with the range it has. BE lacks in so many other areas that changing the overdrive should be very low on priority list.

 

BE with faster airdashes, that would be too awesome. I think even if they made them just a bit faster, by 4 or 6 frames, a lot would change. BE's air pressure would be much harder to AA and thus people would have to respect him more. Who knows, maybe that alone would make the salt flow.

 

What do you mean with "DV less telegraphed"? As in make the deja vu activation motion faster, or the release of attack from the seal? I'd agree to some very slight changes to hitbox/frame data of DV ground C, but deja vu mechanics seem to work very well in their current form. Changing them would be very risky.

[Red Star]

no way, i already suffered enough in ac having to deal with that garbage

Honestly in Xrd I doubt it would function nearly as well. He would probably have trouble comboing well after it without his old 2S, and extend sends across the screen so no free oki.

I would love to see trishula (Pot's new pillar of fire move) revamped or honestly just scrapped for something else altogether. The moves makes no sense at all and serves no real function that his other moves don't do way better.

[This Man]

Trishula could be a great GTFO me move. I imagine it was designed with this in mind. (Total speculation, but maybe they felt it was too powerful and reduced its effectiveness?)

[Destin]

True, but we're discussing changes to Xrd, not +R. To answer you in full - +R was the final step in evolution of X2 series. Not only was it completely incompatible with mentioned mechanics, but also its own system was strong enough to shine on its own.

I would argue xrd is the evolution of the xx/#R series, AC of the AC series.

[rubedo777]

Too many abbreviations...what is FC? Fatal Counter? OD = ??? Overdrive?

 

 

BEDMAN

1. Needs ability to do Deja Vu in the air

2. More priority on air bed smash

3. Faster movement on air dash

4. Clock super needs larger radius

5. Dust needs larger range

6. Deja Vu to be less telegraphed

 

Yeah dust needs larger radius for sure...feel like you have to be pointblank to get it to connect...then you have characters like Chipp that can hit with theirs from almost half screen.

 

Bedman has some deficiencies but man, if you watch that player Shu use him, you'd swear he's top tier.

[GKHiryu]

I would argue xrd is the evolution of the xx/#R series, AC of the AC series.

 

You do have a point, but Xrd is far detached from XX times. I know they share a lot, but with changes to market come changes to business and design philosophy significant enough to regard #R only as far as the base of Xrd gameplay, but not something that's linked directly and continued in Xrd. It is a different game that will be developed much differently from its grandfathers.

[Angry Guy of DE]

You need to remember in BB that damage in most cases tends to be higher in most confirms, especially when throws themselves tend to lead to a combo.

Also note that there was no Defense modifier or Guts rating so a 1/3 life combo was always 1/3 life where at just half health the damage would be lowered to some degree with every character in GG.

OD was fine as a mechanic aside from certain characters like Hakumen who could get a throw and make it 7K unburstable like in 1.0 since his first hit of the throw had no damage prorate.  On the flip side, GG bursts were able to become gold bursts that would give FULL meter if it his the opponent.  Meter is more plentiful in GG and can only require 1/4 of the bar to do YRC to make moves safe or to make a mixup.

OD wouldn't work as well in GG mainly because outside of locking out a burst the other advantage is to increase the damage of supers.  Remember CT with no minimum damage scaling?  Supers would be useless in the current engine because the damage would be so low before considering Defense Modifier or Guts whereas BB had different health amounts per character so you'll get a straight consistent number for a move.

On second thought, lets just have Sol pop dragon install whenever.  Yolo.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I think we're on both ends of spectrum, me seeing the mentioned stuff as brilliant and you seeing it as crap.

Yes, FC and OD wouldn't work in Xrd, but that's just because Xrd was not designed with them in mind. With generally shorter combos and guard gauge, additional positive damage scaler would indeed be overkill. It's the same for OD. I've no idea how OD could've worked in Xrd as it is. It probably wouldn't. (just thinking that Zato could be the tiniest bit stronger, that would probably make me drop the game) What I'm saying is that in general OD is a good feature and to have it implemented properly in hypothetical Xrd would make the game much better.

 

But honestly. What's stupid about OD? I could agree that it's stupid, because the Japanese will always strive to have a defined tier lists in their games, so by design philosophy of the devs the ODs would indeed be made in an intentionally unbalanced way. However, just the idea of OD, do you think it's stupid as well?

Also I'm really curious about your thoughts on burst. What's wrong with it?

 

I'm not saying these features should be added to Xrd, as that would indeed be stupid. I'm saying it would've been great if Xrd was designed with that in mind. Still, don't mind me. I'm the guy who thinks that if they did a carbon copy of AC+R in Unreal 4 then no work ever would have to be done on the game and it would become "as perfect as it gets".

 

OD is one of those ideas that is theoretically good, but doesn't work well in practice. Just one of those situations where the results are too inconsistent across the board. I also don't like the idea of a mechanic that the game would have to be redesigned around; that just smacks of bad ideas. Kinda like Custom Combos in most old Capcom games.

 

The BB Burst system is lame because Bursts are too fast and there are too few ways of baiting them. It's a matter of where the focus is; in GG, the focus is on the offensive player, and Burst has to be used in an intelligent way to make sure you don't get punished for it. In BB, baiting Bursts is almost always a hard read, and if you guess wrong, you are usually in a bad position; it favors the defender excessively. The fact that you even get a move that can let you escape combos is good enough, IMO.

[Maho]

But in BB burst is a more valuable ressource to a lot of character due to losing unburstable OD combos if you use it for defense, I think the effectiveness of the burst is balanced by that and with its longer recovery that make you eat an harder punish when baited, and there's quite enough ways to bait it (at least with my characters, Azrael, Tager and Koko).

One thing I regret they got rid of was the variable startup burst from CT, so that the startup speed of your burst depended on the amount of barrier you had, it was really interesting (but the one per round thing wasn't good though).

 

As for Xrd burst, I find it a bit too weak, there's way too much things that are burst safe due to its bad hitbox, with a bit better hitbox and a few more recovery frames to balance it, and of course the removal of YRC OS, it would be good enough I think.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Only character I can think of where Burst or OD is a really difficult decision would be Hakumen, since he can turn entire matches around off of one OD combo, and that was considered a key part of his gameplay. Maybe Arakune too? Most characters don't lose a lot for not having access to OD.

 

As far as eating harder punishes when baited, I call BS on that. Getting your Burst baited in GG can result in just as much, if not more damage being taken. Maybe the ability to bait is more character specific in BB, with Ragna at least I really struggle without going for hard reads. Burst is just too fast in BB, combined with the general slow nature of attacks in the game, and if you go for a hard read such as a jump cancel, you often lose your momentum.

 

I think simply removing YRC OS would be enough to balance out Xrd Burst. It functions as it has before, and I prefer it in that form.

[Tong]

But in BB burst is a more valuable ressource to a lot of character due to losing unburstable OD combos if you use it for defense, I think the effectiveness of the burst is balanced by that and with its longer recovery that make you eat an harder punish when baited, and there's quite enough ways to bait it (at least with my characters, Azrael, Tager and Koko).

One thing I regret they got rid of was the variable startup burst from CT, so that the startup speed of your burst depended on the amount of barrier you had, it was really interesting (but the one per round thing wasn't good though).

 

As for Xrd burst, I find it a bit too weak, there's way too much things that are burst safe due to its bad hitbox, with a bit better hitbox and a few more recovery frames to balance it, and of course the removal of YRC OS, it would be good enough I think.

lol you're mistaking legit burst baits with terrible burst attempts. Burst safe combos in CP play a smaller role in general compared to GG and P4U, where you do not need to sacrifice combo damage or oki in order to make a burst whiff.

 

CT bursts were ridiculously terrible, you literally could react to it by Rapid Cancelling anything.

Xrd bursts are fine in their own way, it's meant to be used wisely and encourages smarter play.