A.X.I.S. Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Bait anti airs? Punish anti airs? Land in front 720? Crossup? What are you smoking? Does Tager have a magic carpet that can put his oversized metallic ass anywhere? You jump, your opponent waits, AAs you. In Noel's case, Double AA. 6A canceles into 6C I believe. Land in front? What, is Noel not going to try and AA you? This isn't KoF where you can hop. Goddamn I wish it was. sure for me i have a magic carpet, i can do pretty much whatever i want from the air in this match up, i seen alot of noels try but only a few can actually knock me off it, oh kof, now you got me in the mood. *dust off dream cast* Punish anti airs from the air? Funny. Unless Tager has the Gold Potemkin Supers, I doubt that happens. Crossup, crossing yourself up maybe. Noel can just 28D with auto correction and ouch CH you go goodbye say hello to 22C. if she thinks she can hit me with it then sure, until then what she can do is just a can. Using Tager means being smarter yes, but what happens when the opponent (everyone else in the game) has more tools than you do? Make yours effective? What if their tools are more effective than your tools? You're talking as if Tager has a billion options from the air. And the only good option Tager has in this matchup is Barrier block. strip them of their tools. silly question, thats all you have to do unless you like waiting until they crack our shells then beat us with their magic swords, guns, sticks, and fist. btw i don't cross myself up its not even hard doing it, lol i'll sell you my carpet for 10$.
Skye Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 "Wait"'s a fun word. In order to wait for something, you'd have to expect it. So what happens when something unexpected occurs? Certainly food for thought, ね?
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 strip them of their tools. silly question, thats all you have to do unless you like waiting until they crack our shells then beat us with their magic swords, guns, sticks, and fist. btw i don't cross myself up its not even hard doing it, lol i'll sell you my carpet for 10$. I swear to god you must play some crappy ass noels all the time, with horrible timing, maybe they dont even know what they were doing. No offense to the noels, but jeez, who gives axis all these ideas? okay axis, evaluation time! Youre jumping in against a noel, whats the smartest thing to do? A) Barrier B) jB C) jC D) jD E) j2C
Henaki Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 tager doesnt have a double jump 6a will hit him, or hell do j2C which is punishable as all hell. you might be misspacing or mistiming it, but any "good" anti airs (including noels) will beat tagers air game pretty free. edit: noel tager IS 6-4. i have absolutely no doubts about it. its a really gay matchup for noel who has to play a really annoyingly safe game, but its in noels favor al the same. 5a spam destroys tager free beats backdash into solid air combo and has no escapable hole done right. her aa game shuts his air game down super hard, and in general she has lots of advantage. the way tager has to play is outgues sher up close, thats pretty much it, but he is the one whos taking the risks, its jsut when he does, sometimes they hurt. also there are tager specific combos that actually really hurt him (4.5kish) the matchup is winnable as hell for tager, dont get me wrong, but tager is at a disadvantage the entire time.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 tager doesnt have a double jump 6a will hit him, or hell do j2C which is punishable as all hell. you might be misspacing or mistiming it, but any "good" anti airs (including noels) will beat tagers air game pretty free. j2C gets beat by 6A. crossups get beat by 6C. The best thing you can do is barrier the 6A and pray to god they 6C while you buffer a 720.
Henaki Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 j2C gets beat by 6A. crossups get beat by 6C. The best thing you can do is barrier the 6A and pray to god they 6C while you buffer a 720. im saying, if he delays the timing with j2c, you can normally just block and get a huge combo.
Skye Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Tager's J2C is pretty even on block, IBed however....
Ssuusshhii Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 I swear to god you must play some crappy ass noels all the time, with horrible timing, maybe they dont even know what they were doing. No offense to the noels, but jeez, who gives axis all these ideas? okay axis, evaluation time! Youre jumping in against a noel, whats the smartest thing to do? A) Barrier B) jB C) jC D) jD E) j2C F) Ride on my magic carpet.
Konton Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 I AM doing significantly better now that I'm using 214a on sledge prediction...
Heroic_Legacy Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 F) Ride on my magic carpet. I'm giving you my internet.
Skye Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 But yeah, the match up is not unfair biased to Noel. 6:4 is pretty, uhh.. slight, and like even matches, skill is the biggest determining factor of victory. I know I just made myself look stupid by saying that, for obvious reasons, but if you look at a match up that's like 7:3 the favorable character isn't going to take as much skill to win as the unfavorable, so the skill importance is pretty one sided. In match ups like these (5:5, 6:4) it's more or less mutual.
dragontamer Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Oh yeah, no doubt its in Noel's favor. Now as I said in GFAQs: Heroic_Legacy, stop beating me with Tager, and start losing like you are supposed to. :-p
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 F) Ride on my magic carpet. 555555555555. But yeah I would just barrier, maybe if I was feeling ballsy go for an IB then some 720s or someshit, but I really don't jump at noels. Mostly just block their shit and try to figure the other player out.
Henaki Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Tager's J2C is pretty even on block, IBed however.... you can ib it on reaction. does anyone actually play against people who know how to play? edit: online does not count, timing changes drastically online, if you are basing judgements based entirely on online play you do not have a valid opinion to post.
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 you can ib it on reaction. does anyone actually play against people who know how to play? edit: online does not count, timing changes drastically online, if you are basing judgements based entirely on online play you do not have a valid opinion to post. Also Henaki unfortunately some of us get most of our experience online, and the people we play offline are either just as bad or we only get to play them every so often. I go about 1/2 offline and 1/2 online and it feels like playing 2 different games at some times. As for j.2C Im almost positive its bad on regular non barrier block as well, and on IB its p. much a free BnB. Or at least anytime I try it against the people who I know can play its free damage for them if they block it still useful sometimes though. I used to rely on the move too much myself until I played a few decent people offline and I got ripped a new one for it .
Spirit Juice Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 I just deleted 16 posts related to Heroic_Legacy's horrible opinion. Not only was it a horrible one, he didn't even give reasons or specific details as to why he listed those match-ups the way he did. I couldn't tell if he was trolling or not, but it warrented a delete regardless. I highly recommend anyone DOES not post their opinions based on their online experiences, because more than likely you're going to be wrong. Online play is NOT the same as playing someone in real life. This thread is for discussing high level play and the match-ups that result from it. Online play =/= high level play. Also, please avoid talking about asking for advice in regards to specific match ups for your character, and talking about your personal experiences with X player; that is what the character forums are for.
Lord Knight Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 OK, going to make a real post. Litchi vs Rachel - 5.5 Advantage for Litchi. This isn't good for Rachel because she actually has to be point blank to be effective. Litchi can actually play a fullscreen/midscreen game against Rachel rather well. Also Litchi's meterless damage is going to be overall higher in this match thanks to Rachel's hitbox - Litchi is going to be averaging 3.5 - 4k (definately 4k off every counter hit) and Rachel only gets about 3K average unless she has meter or gets 6B CH (which honestly should never happen). Once Litchi has 50 meter Rachel has to be especially careful of Litchi full/midscreen because of Daisharin/Ryuuisou. Litchi vs Nu - 5-5. Litchi has good tools for manuvering around Nu, and thanks to j.B avoids big damage from CH 2C. The long range of her pokes, specifically 3C and 6B, are useful if the Nu player tries to read her instead of react. Kara fast fall is also useful for approaching from the air. Nu, like Rachel, has a lot to worry about once Litchi has 50 meter, because practically anything she does can be punished with Ryuuisou, even blocked Crescent Sabers. The J2DD > Crescent Saber Cancel > More swords/mixups is weak on Litchi since she can IB > Itsuu Guard point to cover almost all options. Litchi vs Arakune - 4.5-5.5, Arakune's favor. Litchi has good tools to deal with Arakune but is pretty much done if she gets cursed at all. 5D staff placement is especially good for fishing for counterhits from practically any of his air moves, along with hitting his bellbug. Litchi's 6B is good for getting counterhits when he's on the ground, but that's not often. Like the other zoners, she gets considerably scarier once she has 50 meter. However his damage output, backdash/dash and curse just make it a tough match, she has to use special strings to deal with the dashes, like 5B 6 3C, which takes away from any solid pressure she could do. Jin - No comment, 5D is too gay, don't know what to say Carl - 5-5, this match really relies on momentum. Litchi is ok if she gets between Carl and Nirvana thanks to IB tsubame but it isn't reliable. She's really good at keeping him out and taking out Nirvana with 6C[M]. Also once she has meter she can escape clap loop with Daisharin, which he can't really do anything about. Taokaka - 5-5, this is another momentum match. Litchi has problems against Tao's j.C but 5D anti-air is really effective against it. It also stops Tao from mindlessly using D to approach. Litchi's mixup is solid, but pretty much nulled if Tao has 50 meter. Ragna - 5-5, Litchi keeps getting more tools against Ragna, keeping him from facerolling his way to victory. Her 5A can fish CH from his 5B, but can be countered by his 5C. She has 6C[M] dp punisher which does great damage and sends to corner. Ragna can't IAD jC her at all thanks to her low crouch, he has to rely on jumping in, which she has 5D placement to keep him out. He can DP her shishin but she can end combos in a way that keeps her out of range, and she can punish. Noel - 6-4 for Litchi. Noel can't really get in on Litchi and has to rely on taking really big risks to approach while Litchi can just play really safe the entire time. Litchi can't really anti-air a good Noel often, so what she wants to do is control the space directly above in front of her. If Noel jumps in deep (or runs extra), she can JA you out of JB and JC, but rising J7B should hit her. Litchi JA wins a lot from under, good, quick aerial. IAD back JC is also really good for keeping her out. On the ground you have 5B and 6B, but be aware that she can 3C/5D these. If you fear that at all, use 5C. When Noel lands, tag her with 5B, force her to block. If she starts running too deep from you using iad back JC a lot, 5B is a good "what are you doing stay back" kind of move. Bang - 5-5. This match is a lot about keeping Bang down. Match has two phases, when he has nails and when he doesn't. Once Bang is out of nails there isn't much he can do about Litchi's aerials. Tsubame is decent wakeup, but he has guard points to stop it. This is the matchup where she really gets to show off her strength off rolls, her reversals off rolls, both staff and staffless, work really well against him. He can keep up in damage thanks to her hitbox, but her damage is consistently good on him as well so it doesn't matter much. Hakumen - 5-5. Lots of footsies. Her main problem is dealing with 6A and how to handle oki (because of his counter). You can get them to respect an air approach using kara fastfall, then punishing the whiffed 6A. As far as oki, she can't do anything to him unless she uses unconventional options, which do exist. Tager - 6-4. Not much he can do, you keep him out with pokes and play a really reactive game. He can burst 720 5C > tsubame, the general answer is to do 5C > itsuu and punish the burst as normal. If she consistently positions herself so that she can 2C his jump-in, it makes it even harder for him to approach. She gets fullscreen mixup easily on him thanks to his limited mobility, 2B > 6A or 2B > ItsuuC. She has some Tager only mixups involving deep j.C > Chun, to either crossup in the corner or not, and has pretty good damage off that as well. This post was rushed a bit, but pretty much sums everything up.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 OK, going to make a real post. stuff I finally find a litchi player who doesnt completely trash her and say shes horrid. I thought i was the only one who felt that she has an advantage over noel, however slight i believe she is a solid, safe character most of the time. She can do alot, she has plenty of corner tricks, *coughstenandhisstupidcrossupthing* Though the disadvantage against kune is pretty given, she is generally very solid.
Alzarath Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 what in the blue hell intelligent post? in here? my eyes deceive me I'd post, but eh... most ppl already know how rachel's match-ups are.
Kuuhaku Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Usually not that bad unless you're Carl or Tager or Hakumen. Then the loli is a major pain in your rear.
Sophisticat Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Usually not that bad unless you're Carl or Tager or Hakumen. Then the loli is a major pain in your rear. I concur, both as a Hakumen and former Rachel mainer. Haku can't do much vs. Pole & Pumpkin Spam unless he moves fast to avoid it before the Rachel gets started. Close-up mix-up is also quite evil. On the other hand, if the Rachel is around Haku's 6c and 5c length, she can have a tough time if the Haku has stars to burn. In general though, Rachel has the edge over Haku. 6-4 for me, it's definitely not as bad as going up vs. Nu or Ara.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Usually not that bad unless you're Carl or Tager or Hakumen. Then the loli is a major pain in your rear. its not too bad for tager, i just chill through the whole fight, walking through the mounds of shit she throws at me, the trick is when i get close how to lock her down, how to get the magnet on her and to keep under pressure, wants i find the suitable means of locking her in, the match quickly turns to my favor. for tager its literally getting close without triggering a counter hit, hitting her, then pressuring her, find a way to net some damage, bait a burst (hard as hell to do) then deliver the final blow. like Kro said 6/4, she's not gay like nu, kune, and carl. oh and SKD i wanna finish the debate but i'll consider it a loss, either way its still 6/4 for noel.
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 SKD is rather touchy when it comes with noel.... and I'd like to discuss haku vs tager.... I just DON'T see why it would be in his favor. and please don't say 360a 'nuff said and close the case.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 SKD is rather touchy when it comes with noel.... and if I'd like to discuss haku vs tager.... I just DON'T see why it would be in his favor. and please don't say 360a 'nuff said and close the case. ok i won't. its because haku have to rely on thwarting tager in his attempts, one 360 and shit goes sideways for you. backdash gets punished by 5A and J.A if it he's predictable but tager can also air throw you out and not to mention you guys just like tager have to rely on fuck ups, like 5D>236B if tager throws a lose 5D on you guys its a free combo and if you have meter then poof we lost 4k hp and you guys get advantage. you guys have no oki on get up, ok you guys got 214B but if tager have meter or or just feel like 360ing then you guys waste 2 meter. lets go over our options. round 1 start. backdash, low block, thats it! meaning at the begining haku will beat us, this is a game of checkers and you guys are the smoke before our fire, meaning we can't do much unless you do something we can't punish, but at the same time you can't keep us away either. haku has us in 6C range, we can IB 6C or hop toward you and J.C for the boost you lose that reach then it becomes a game of jump and punish if its not j.A you eat a 360 clean, if we don't back up then i assure you, you will have meter to hotaru? is that what the anti air kick is? and jump out, from what i get wiff or miss you get a second chance, and without a magnet we can't do anything, good haku's won't let us stack a magnet unless they get combo'd, cactus guy, fullautodeath, jackmfg, and SA town are all examples. so in other words its a game of who can punish who better in this case tager can fuck haku up if he messes up a counter, in which case tagers 6A feels like the biggest punish, a counter hit on this with a spark bolt says 5k damage and we could RC without spark bolt and still come out with 5k+ without bolt, magnet keeps you guys from wanting to come in so we have to step up and keep a eye on your meter. i'd finish this up later but to me it feels like i can do alot more damage on haku's mistakes then i can, and without a corner or alot of meter you can't do much to us. sorry if it seems half assed gotta do some stuff. be backs.
MisoSowee Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 ok i won't. its because haku have to rely on thwarting tager in his attempts, one 360 and shit goes sideways for you. But you gotta remember a thorough understanding of tager's tech traps is vital in this match-up. If you've got that it really isn't so confusing as any old mix-up if you can see the consistencies within the tager's set-ups. backdash gets punished by 5A and J.A 5a and j.A don't go into anything unless hakumen is magnetized though.... if it he's predictable but tager can also air throw you out and not to mention you guys just like tager have to rely on fuck ups, Hakumen should NOT be in the air that much (well mine isn't, not telling anyone how to play hakumen) I'm doing this from the standpoint of a turtle hakumen. like 5D>236B if tager throws a lose 5D on you guys its a free combo and if you have meter then poof we lost 4k hp and you guys get advantage. Which therein lies why i don't think this should be in tager's favor, a hakumen player should only be throwing counters upon reaction to 5d,2d, sledge; among other things. you guys have no oki on get up, ok you guys got 214B but if tager have meter or or just feel like 360ing then you guys waste 2 meter. True, his oki isn't amazing but it's completely safe. Because of hakumens' aerial state within a hop, all throws are negated and if he cancels into 214b then it's totally safe and the hakumen can jump in our out depending on what he feels like doing. lets go over our options. round 1 start. 2c as hakumen is only beaten (from what I"ve gotten so far) by j.A and 5a I believe. 360a doesn't reach unless it has to be delayed or something. Remember seeing someone whiff it on me. backdash, low block, thats it! meaning at the begining haku will beat us, this is a game of checkers and you guys are the smoke before our fire, meaning we can't do much unless you do something we can't punish, but at the same time you can't keep us away either. haku has us in 6C range, we can IB 6C IB 6c would hit? From the sound of it it's far too slow to catch hakumen after 6c. If it doesn't then you just set yourself up for a frame trap. (well.. kinda a frame trap?) or hop No hop for tager :[ toward you and J.C for the boost you lose that reach then it becomes a game of jump and punish 2c is the god's anti-air in this instance. It reaches really high, but you also have to be careful NOT to let the j.2c delay pass by it (hakumen's 2c has a pitiful amount of active frames, like most of the moves in BB) If you can master doing 2c safely it's quite a fortress to go over. (however some tagers vs. me have had a little bit of success with j.D, but I haven't faced it enough to really assess it. if its not j.A you eat a 360 clean, if we don't back up then i assure you, you will have meter to hotaru? is that what the anti air kick is? and jump out, from what i get wiff or miss you get a second chance, and without a magnet we can't do anything, good haku's won't let us stack a magnet unless they get combo'd, cactus guy, fullautodeath, jackmfg, and SA town are all examples. I'll agree. Getting a magnet on you can be veeeery confusing. Jumping is unsafe, and you'll slowly be drawn into mix-up range. Best thing to do would be hop cancel hotaru and catch the tager in one of his moves, or just be very careful when countering (i've had some really odd times when you'd think I'm in range for the counter, but tager stops juuuuuuust out of range and doesn't hit me. I'll need to remember those ranges :P so in other words its a game of who can punish who better in this case tager can fuck haku up if he messes up a counter, in which case tagers 6A feels like the biggest punish, a counter hit on this with a spark bolt says 5k damage and we could RC without spark bolt and still come out with 5k+ without bolt, magnet keeps you guys from wanting to come in so we have to step up and keep a eye on your meter. I'll also agree. The moment that hakumen slips a counter tager can really lay down the hurt, especially in a slower match like hakumen vs tager. All of the momentum hakumen gains from his counter - supers can be lost from one of tager's combos (and the frame/tech trap follow-ups!) i'd finish this up later but to me it feels like i can do alot more damage on haku's mistakes then i can, and without a corner or alot of meter you can't do much to us. sorry if it seems half assed gotta do some stuff. be backs. This is why I think it's even!!!! *flame shield on towards lolonline people*
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