BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[-Ladon-]

My mistake for not thinking you'd be dumb enough to assume you can get 22C as an ender in every combo.

the combo under question requires a 3C in it that you're mentioning, but let's ignore that fact just so we can look right yaaaaa

the purpose of fitting the 22c ender is to get 50 meter, 22c oki, and high damage, if you ignore that for 5 extra meter, get shot

the only combo you can't fit a 22c ender in is the one you don't hit confirm, you can 3c off a low, a high, and spacing it is not even that hard, the majority of your combos will be in range to 3c and if it's too far away standing you're probably using gauntlet hades or hells fang(which has no point in what you're trying to say), or in the RARE occasion you have to *gasp* dash 2B to pick them up and finish with a BE.

I love when people try to be a wiseass only to make themselves look like a complete retard.

Deductive reasoning is your friend, bro.

I heard being a wiseass is in direct connection with being right, my bad, i'll try not to be right as much

I heard ending with a 3c instead of 5d-DID gives you a safe jump option, a 22c ender if they don't tech it, and an emergency tech oki game if they do tech

but hey, let's save that for the really smart people in this thread

edit: 2000 REPLIES CAN WE GET THIS THREAD LOCKED AND NEVER DISCUSSED BY IDIOTS AGAIN

[Leaf]

Noticed how I used the word "try", implying you failed at it? Of course not, that would be implying you're not an idiot.

I heard you were only talking about 22C and DID, and not 3C? Oh wait, you're trying to make yourself look less retarded by adding shit that was never mentioned in the first place. If you could read, I wasn't even discussing which was better, just pointing out how you're retarded, so don't go trying those desperation shenanigans again.

I'm done here, this thread is already pretty bad. Just do me a favor and try not to embarrass yourself next time, thanks

[GenoWhirl]

edit: 2000 REPLIES CAN WE GET THIS THREAD LOCKED AND NEVER DISCUSSED BY IDIOTS AGAIN

Sorry but I lol'd.

Hard.

[-Ladon-]

Noticed how I used the word "try", implying you failed at it? Of course not, that would be implying you're not an idiot.

I heard you were only talking about 22C and DID, and not 3C? Oh wait, you're trying to make yourself look less retarded by adding shit that was never mentioned in the first place. If you could read, I wasn't even discussing which was better, just pointing out how you're retarded, so don't go trying those desperation shenanigans again.

I'm done here, this thread is already pretty bad. Just do me a favor and try not to embarrass yourself next time, thanks

so you're saying not to use viable options? gj at looking downs.

[smooshman]

keep the ethics of meter vs damage/oki for Ragna in the Ragna thread, this is about the matchups, and I don't see how minute differences in meter gain warrants rather arbitrary anger.

speaking of Ragna, what do Ragna mains think of the Jin matchup? because the general consensus among the Jin players is that Jin is absolutely fucked. He just can't play footsies with Ragna and is basically forced on the defensive from the get go....

personally it's as bad Bang, but just below Litchi in terms of bad matchups

[Kristoph]

As a Jin main, I have yet to be significantly scared by any Ragna online so far. Maybe that just means I need to play better Ragnas, but after learning how his pressure/mixup generally works, it really hasn't been too difficult to pick up on player habits and capitalize. I'm generally pretty calm in this matchup, it feels no worse than 5.5:4.5 in Ragna's favor... but again, maybe I just need to play better Ragnas. >_>

[Seifuuku]

keep the ethics of meter vs damage/oki for Ragna in the Ragna thread, this is about the matchups, and I don't see how minute differences in meter gain warrants rather arbitrary anger.

speaking of Ragna, what do Ragna mains think of the Jin matchup? because the general consensus among the Jin players is that Jin is absolutely fucked. He just can't play footsies with Ragna and is basically forced on the defensive from the get go....

personally it's as bad Bang, but just below Litchi in terms of bad matchups

i think it is 5.5-4.5 ragna's favor. ib->d dp is still godlike, though.

[Asdferty]

I'd say ragna jin is ragna's favour, but it isn't the end of the world. You can play footies with ragna, it's just his reward is much higher than yours for the most part. I'd say take to the air, and bait 6a's with ice swords when you can. Once you force him to block an aerial you can do whatever it is you do to win your matches. Jin can hit harder in the corner, (not counting like combo vid shit) so you want to be proficient at IB'ing ragna's (fairly easy to see) blockstrings, and use that meter to push him in the corner. Nothing wrong with being on the defensive for a bit if you know how to block, ragna's mixup is annoying but not impossible to see. Yeah ultimately you want to keep him out of range for 3c combos, and IB lots of stuff, it shouldn't be too bad. From ragna's point of view you want to 6a the aerials and just get in his face, the numbers are in your favour when close for sure.

Thanks zidane for backing me up, and yeah I forgot about 5c and 2a as anti airs, they both have their uses too. You can also use the command grab for a nice reset mixup, with a dash(? might not need a dash, not really hard though) 5b and gatling into a 6a or 6b houtenjin for a more scary mixup. That's not airtight or anything, but it's still hard to see coming and the frame advantage is nice on the 5b > X gatling in terms of overheads.

[smooshman]

the thing about Ragna is that Jin really needs heat to stand a chance, the moment he gets 25 heat the matchup becomes easier... but in beggining Jin can't do much, 5C will get stuffed by just about anything with hit box (seriously 5C's hittable box is.... apparently Jin's cape is prehensile) and air game is risky with ID and 6A, so Jin just has to sit there and take it till he get's enough to use hirensou, which is his only reliable reversal in this matchup, 623C doesn't have enough horizontal range....

once gets on the offense it gets much easier, but getting there is the real problem with this matchup, Jin's just ill equipped to keep Ragna out.

[Leonil_Requiem]

Where's the most resent official tier list?

[redsilversnake]

3C is pretty unsafe if it whiffs, yeah. But you only throw it out in combos or if you know they'll block it. And seeing as how 3C can chain into stance besides 236D, I don't see how it's unsafe. If they block it and think they'll get a free punish, DP. If they see you stance and expect the DP, you wait and either go out of it or do overhead/low cause guess what... they're safe! And overhead catches jumping opponents so they either have to block, get hit or mash blindly.

I already explained why Hazama's "DP" isn't very good against a grounded opponent. Although it initially seems that it puts the game back in neutral, it's disadvantageous for Hazama. As for his other stance moves, he has a very good chance of getting hit out of any of them, so using them is often a bad idea.

Hotenjin isn't the best reversal in the game but it is top 5.

That's...basically what I said.

214DB isn't a great reversal but a great move in general. It's a DP that's safe on block against most of the cast and can lead into a 2-4K combo on CH with decent meter gain. Even on regular hit, Lvl 2 214DB can lead into Hotenjin for 3-5K damage.

It's not safe on block at all. It's -18. Also, I haven't tested lvl 2-3 on regular hit, so anyone is free to correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure regular hit doesn't have enough hitstun to combo into Jayoku.

He never said 623D was a great anti-air. Just that it was another usable anti-air, which it is. Not to mention that both of you forgot that 2A, 5B and 5C all anti-air extremely well too.

Usable, yes, but only rarely, since the opponent isn't going to be high enough almost all the time. Also, 2A and 5B don't anti-air "extremely well," though they can be used as anti-airs.

What the hell? Unless you're completely predictable about using stance moves, throwing out 214DA is stupidly good anytime. It's a safe overhead. It's a SAFE overhead. Lvl 2 even allows him pressure since it's +8.

I'm painfully aware that it's safe. However, it can still be hit out of on reaction.

6A is 22 frames ( about average overhead speed ) and -5 on block, meaning you either need a 5 frame poke or to IB it. Except if spaced right, your 5 frame poke will whiff if regular blocked, so you need to IB it every time to get a punish. And I don't see the problem with it only being able to combo into Hotenjin at all.

And how are you not going to IB an overhead?

6B is a standing low, 25 frames, kinda slow. Except you see Hazama standing so you expect an overhead. Not to mention it's -2 on block, meaning you need to IB to get any sort of punish which won't happen if spaced correctly. Again, only leads to Hotenjin, don't see a problem with that.

The vast majority of Hazama's moves are mids and lows, so I don't see how seeing him standing would make them think he's going for an overhead. Sure, it's less obvious than Bang's 6A, but it's still a poor mix-up tool.

214DC is 19 frames, -3 LVL 1, -1 LVL 2. Need to IB LVL 1 and have a long range 5-6 frame poke; good luck punishing that!

Don't need luck. It has the same problem as 214D~A: if it's reacted to or predicted, Hazama's screwed against various characters.

Hazama's command throw has the same limitations as Bangs... like.. being untechable? A good mixup option? Hazama's is faster by 1 frame, has invinciblity during command throw, deals about 2K damage on half the cast and nets Hazama 30-35% meter while the other half takes 2.7K ( which is A Tager Buster damage ) and gets 49-51% meter.

Same limitations like awful range and being very techable if the opponent sees it coming. Throw in the ungodly proration, and you've got a move that's only good from time to time.

The person you did quote was completely right about why Hazama is top 3 though.

This made me laugh my ass off. Seriously, comedic gold right here. There are so many characters above Hazama, yet you say he's top three? Brilliant. Truly magnificent satire that Twain would applaud were he a BB player.

[redsilversnake]

the combo under question requires a 3C in it that you're mentioning, but let's ignore that fact just so we can look right yaaaaa

The combo I was talking about starts with 5B>5C, not 5B>3C.

And yeah, I know 22C is better, so I should use 3C instead, but there's this little thing called hit confirming that I'm trying to do, but by the time I've done so, I've already committed to 5C and they're out of 3C's range, so I just roll with it.

Where's the most resent official tier list?

There is no official tier list. The ones everyone usually go by are those released by magazines.

[sorry for double posting, everyone.]

[Mr.Biscuits]

He is not top 3 since its clear that Arakune is better... Some might say Ragna and Hakumen also, but imo its Litchi, Bang and Arakune thats top 3 all S or maybe S- in Arakune's case, Hazama is A or A+ fighting for 4th spot with Hakumen, Ragna and Carl imo.

Arakune is NOT better than Hazama. How is he top 3 when he has about 3 terrible matchups and then a few others which are still bad?

[Alex073088]

imho taokaka vs rachel is definitley no lower then a 6.5-3.5, i would say 7.5- 2.5. This character out damages you by a significatn amount, the characters mobilty is way to hard to deal when you do not have good normals, or even relyable tools. everything rachel does is so laggy for absoutley no reason. 6a is complete trash, whiff that in this match and your getting tauntloop. you dont have decent ways to lock tao down at all, and mid-screen barriering rachel off you gets you out a whole lot of shit.(if u can even catch her. And when your blocking tao, you are blocking her for a good while, her normals reach out way farther then yours do so trying to poke out is almsot as pointless as if you were fighting ragna. and after she does damage you have to work soo damn hard to get catch her. this match is probabdly fucked up for lamada as well.(who i feel is very balanced out)

rachel vs hakumen imho is 6-4 hakumen...no more or no less. hakumen has to mess up like 10 times to die by rachels hands and he has great defensive tools to prevent him from worrying about making to many miscaluted moves. rachel gets to mess up maybe twice and she is gone. no more then twice...because after taking two combos from hakumen he can turtle the rest of the match out by jumping all over the place and blocking....this is why rachel needed that pumpkin last game to actually force an opponent to either sit on the ground or jump toward the corner.

After fighting hakumen, i really much rather fight litchi...atleast i know litchi players are working slightly harder the hakumen is to win against rachel.

[XAQshinor]

wow... redsilversnake just stop posting dude. you're polluting the community with lies and stupidity. stay wrong my nigga.

[Arifureta]

Haz fact check:

- 3C doesn't gatling into stance. Going into stance after 3C is a gamble since 214D~A can be hit out on reaction, 214D~C needs proper positioning to even work (i.e. pretty bloody close) and with the frame disadvantage you get from 3C being blocked and then the startup to the stance, it's more likely that you'll eat a CH than get to continue pressure. 214D~B is gimmicky. :B

- 2A != AA. 5A, on the other hand, works wonders.

- You're not looking for damage on that command grab, you're looking for OKI.

[Zidane]

1) The fact that you say going into stance is a risk after 3C means it does Gatling from that move. Cool fact check. Spamming stance after 3c is stupid. Doin it from time to time is not. Also 3c into stance immediately is not easy to punish at all. Half the cast can't punish 214db.

2) 2A is an antiair. That's all I have to say about that.

3) Oki off command throw is nice; not the reason you do it. You do it for free 2k+ damage and 30-50% meter gain.

[Mr.Biscuits]

Same limitations like awful range and being very techable if the opponent sees it coming. Throw in the ungodly proration, and you've got a move that's only good from time to time.

Very techable? Please shut the fuck up.

[Skye]

Arakune is NOT better than Hazama. How is he top 3 when he has about 3 terrible matchups and then a few others which are still bad?

lol

Arakune being top tier.

dat netplay

[Afrikaan]

Should we just close this topic too until SBO concludes? Because right now we're getting the equivalent of a pile of shit in terms of solid discussion.

[Sindelian]

rachel vs hakumen imho is 6-4 hakumen...no more or no less. hakumen has to mess up like 10 times to die by rachels hands and he has great defensive tools to prevent him from worrying about making to many miscaluted moves. rachel gets to mess up maybe twice and she is gone. no more then twice...because after taking two combos from hakumen he can turtle the rest of the match out by jumping all over the place and blocking....this is why rachel needed that pumpkin last game to actually force an opponent to either sit on the ground or jump toward the corner.

Everything you described sounds like a 6.5-3.5 match up.

[Afrikaan]

Ignore this.

[Alex073088]

ignore what? what i posted? lol dude i have a record match from ranked of you getting scraped up by rachel.

[redsilversnake]

Very techable? Please shut the fuck up.

Any command grab is techable if you stop blocking right before it's used. Bang's 623C, Hazama's 236C, even Tager's 720C. And they're purple throws, which are the easiest to tech.

[mundus]

Any command grab is techable if you stop blocking right before it's used. Bang's 623C, Hazama's 236C, even Tager's 720C. And they're purple throws, which are the easiest to tech.

?????????? Command throws are only techable if your opponent messed up the setup or if he accidentally counter hit you when he was just trying to land a regular hit, like 5A into 360B with Tager, they are avoidable though, but not techable.