BBCS II Loctest Discussion ~not "Complaining"~

[LordSpectreX]

He's refering to faster charge. Not combos. The faster charge is nice, but it's not as significant as it sounds. And the whole problem with charging is that it's impossible to do pressure, which is why they should make it an Order Sol style system, or something like that.

The lack of 22D wallbounce is what ruins Tsubaki's combos. At the moment, she's below Rachel in the first loctest. For some reason, ASW felt like they needed to nerf some things about Tsubaki, which worries me for what they're going to do next. I mean, who was complaining about 236A's startup?

Damn it. Tsubaki was supposed to be S+ Tier for this patch.

[Alex073088]

Haku-men is not easy, he one of the most strategic characters in the game and his links are hard for BB combos. If 6B was comboable it would scale badly, it already does i think, since when i actually land a blue beat combo after that it doesn't lead to more than 2k damage or so.

Edit, he is however a noob basher, but so is Tager and Ragna.

theres is nuthing stragetic about jumping around and using is new sky poke. and it effectively gives everyone trouble because his weapon is not apart of his hitbox.not to mention him jumping super high and doing it.

also, a person mention his drives have long recovery, no they dont and for characters with poor range, tsubaki and rachel, punishing him whiffing drives can be a bit problematic depending on the distance whiffed. the links are not difficult, people are hitting this shit in horrible lag. hakumen is one of the easiest characters in the game to use effectively period. i can assure you, if hakumens players and rachel(good rachels) were to switch i bet you that hakumens would see how much more harder it is using rachel then hakumen.

[XDest]

According to the JP Tao forums, j.2D got same move proration, j.B and j.C were leveled down, and crawl has more startup ;_;. I liked doing j.2D~C->j.2D~C, j.2D~C->j.2D~A and cat2 loops too. Well, at least we have alternatives for like 100 or 200 less damage. Oh well.

[Sophisticat]

theres is nuthing stragetic about jumping around and using is new sky poke. and it effectively gives everyone trouble because his weapon is not apart of his hitbox.not to mention him jumping super high and doing it.

Sure, but it doesn't lead into any damaging combos. It's a spacing tool. You can also jump into it and punish.

also, a person mention his drives have long recovery, no they dont and for characters with poor range, tsubaki and rachel, punishing him whiffing drives can be a bit problematic depending on the distance whiffed. the links are not difficult, people are hitting this shit in horrible lag. hakumen is one of the easiest characters in the game to use effectively period. i can assure you, if hakumens players and rachel(good rachels) were to switch i bet you that hakumens would see how much more harder it is using rachel then hakumen.

They do have long recovery. Check the frame data. 32f for 2D, 28f for 6D, and j.D is for 11f upon landing. The exception is 5D, but you can't combo off it.

"Harder" here isn't really comparable (though I'll admit I'm not sure what links Mundus was referring to... his combos are fairly easy). I'll have you know that even lowly Rachel gives Haku trouble because of her zoning. Void does help, but it's not a match winner. His weaknesses are that he has to get around other character's zoning, and then create openings. Yeah, he's arguably got the best move in the game (Hotaru), but it's not free if the other knows what he's doing. His mixup sucks, and relies on mag for the big damage stuff.

As I said earlier, put him in his corner, make him waste stars, bait counters, don't be mindless in your offense, and you have yourself a dead Haku.

[Linear04]

He's refering to faster charge. Not combos. The faster charge is nice, but it's not as significant as it sounds. And the whole problem with charging is that it's impossible to do pressure, which is why they should make it an Order Sol style system, or something like that.

The lack of 22D wallbounce is what ruins Tsubaki's combos. At the moment, she's below Rachel in the first loctest. For some reason, ASW felt like they needed to nerf some things about Tsubaki, which worries me for what they're going to do next. I mean, who was complaining about 236A's startup?

Damn it. Tsubaki was supposed to be S+ Tier for this patch.

watch her vids, charge is MAD FAST now, and you can always follow up 22d with 236d, and 2 charges doesnt seem so hard considering the fact that she can do action charge with d now

its gonna be like o sol where at the least you'll almost always have level2/1 charge bar

charge cancel being removed is kind of gay though

i dont see it as much as a nerf than is it an overhaul, since before cs2 it seemed like they were focusing on players doing her chargeless combos for the most part, and now it's charge-ful combos

with faster charge, 22d can net 4k with 2 bars as a starter from midscreen so tsubaki would be somewhat op

edit: i mean charge cancel is still there but 2d has more recovery so its possibly much more risky?

[Seifuuku]

charge cancel is removed? so you can't cancel most of her normals to charge now..?

that sounds relatively gimp, all of her normals would have a gap then..

edit: mm.. wonder how the recovery on 2d is now, then..

[smooshman]

oh wait I think I know why they removed tsu's wallbounce thing.... to get rid of her easy astral combo

[Almadiel]

Valk may not be able to run... in human mode.... but he has a lot of moves that close distance. Those mixup rush specials look pretty good. In wolf mode his approach options look quite varied, save that he can't block quickly. From the descriptions it seems like that wolf run move can quickly cancel into itself and change directions, and its a special move so you should be able to cancel normals into it too. This sounds like ideal hit and run capability almost like mini furinkazan.

[Eshi]

oh wait I think I know why they removed tsu's wallbounce thing.... to get rid of her easy astral combo

makoto can combo into astral off of almost anything easily and tsubaki is garbage compared to her.

[Linear04]

oh wait I think I know why they removed tsu's wallbounce thing.... to get rid of her easy astral combo

nah, its just that with charge bars, wallbounce would be too good, wall bounce was pretty much tsubaki got damage with only one bar, and even then it was like 3.3k

but now that she has much faster charge, wall bounce would lead into big damage, not to mention that its unblockable at full charge, much faster than jins

there are also plenty of characters that can bnb into astral, and with tsubaki you can still do astral combo with 214d so that's probably not the reason why

[Felicia]

Valk may not be able to run... in human mode.... but he has a lot of moves that close distance. Those mixup rush specials look pretty good. In wolf mode his approach options look quite varied, save that he can't block quickly. From the descriptions it seems like that wolf run move can quickly cancel into itself and change directions, and its a special move so you should be able to cancel normals into it too. This sounds like ideal hit and run capability almost like mini furinkazan.

Yep. It's the same thought I had when I saw wolf-form. Looks like he's got some furinkazan movement there. Although, he can't do a diagonal air dash like Bang can, he has to use a special, which seems to have some interesting Beast Cannon (from Jon Talbain in Darkstalkers) qualities in the angles.

[LordSpectreX]

If they do remove the wallbounce, is 6C going to be useful at all outside of corners?

[Taylor]

Wall bounce was pretty much the only way Tsubaki could do damage mid-screen. Making her charge faster and doubling the resources required to break 2k mid-screen seems dubious to me.

And while 2 stocks for 4k mid-screen was a lot, in context it still would’ve come after one or two other combos that did comparatively nothing at all (even less now) or a run-away game.

It’s retained its wall-bounce on counter-hit (there's your use for 6CC) and at the very least I’d like to see it retain bounce on max-charge. I don’t think it'd be possible to land it at max in a proper combo now 214A/B have been nerfed.

[Linear04]

giving auto guard on 22d might be a good idea, but then again is way too op

we never see any good tsubaki players on so its hard to tell whether current tsubaki is good as she is or not

[ikeTATARI]

nah, its just that with charge bars, wallbounce would be too good, wall bounce was pretty much tsubaki got damage with only one bar, and even then it was like 3.3k

but now that she has much faster charge, wall bounce would lead into big damage, not to mention that its unblockable at full charge, much faster than jins

there are also plenty of characters that can bnb into astral, and with tsubaki you can still do astral combo with 214d so that's probably not the reason why

I think everyone is ignoring the fact that without wallbounce from 22D, Tsubaki hits something like 3.5k with 3 charges and 50% meter. She's still a terrible character because they removed all of her options to do any sort of damage WITHOUT charge (or with 1 charge), but in doing so, removed the ability for her to do damage even WITH charge.

[iamkitkatbar]

I'm surprised they haven't fixed tsubaki's 5BB from wiffing on the second hit

or giving her some goddamn normals besides 5B that have range

[xSagez]

I'm surprised they haven't fixed tsubaki's 5BB from wiffing on the second hit

or giving her some goddamn normals besides 5B that have range

Yeah, I agree with this. If that 5BB wiff's, she just gets a free bitch smack by the opponent. Also 5BB shouldn't even come out unless 5B hits. < thats shits annoying.

[Devdan]

Just to make sure I'm not missing something here; this is over now, and no one said anything at all about Mu?

[kenja0]

There was nothing clearly broken with Mu like Makoto's loop was. And since she gets no tournament play, you can't balance something you don't know the full potential to.

[Wolt]

It's kinda hard to when people aren't that great with her at the moment, or even know everything about her. I guess you could say, she's not high on everyone's priority list in terms of changes.

[Alex073088]

Sure, but it doesn't lead into any damaging combos. It's a spacing tool. You can also jump into it and punish.

They do have long recovery. Check the frame data. 32f for 2D, 28f for 6D, and j.D is for 11f upon landing. The exception is 5D, but you can't combo off it.

"Harder" here isn't really comparable (though I'll admit I'm not sure what links Mundus was referring to... his combos are fairly easy). I'll have you know that even lowly Rachel gives Haku trouble because of her zoning. Void does help, but it's not a match winner. His weaknesses are that he has to get around other character's zoning, and then create openings. Yeah, he's arguably got the best move in the game (Hotaru), but it's not free if the other knows what he's doing. His mixup sucks, and relies on mag for the big damage stuff.

As I said earlier, put him in his corner, make him waste stars, bait counters, don't be mindless in your offense, and you have yourself a dead Haku.

actually sounds dead on, only thing that sucks...while pressuring hakumen is guessing between him going to drive or just jump out of pressure, also his dead angle...does that give him a combo?

[mAc Chaos]

His counter assault is literally just his 6D except it's done out of blockstun.

[Blade]

Here's a smart idea: someone should e-mail ASW and ask for a changes log, instead of actually GUESSING what the changes are.

[Linear04]

where's the fun in that?

i'd rather have 50 threads bitching about nothing and even more about complaining

also 22d having no wallbounce being balanced or not depends on how they decide to change all of her other moves/proration

at the rate she's at atm, i'd prefer her to have 4k+ combos from midscreen to be done only with at least 3 bars, and in corner 2

making her heat useful to use might be a good idea too

[rei-Scarred]

Here's a smart idea: someone should e-mail ASW and ask for a changes log, instead of actually GUESSING what the changes are.

I don't think they like dustloop THAT much