BBCS II Loctest Discussion ~not "Complaining"~

[felipebwk]

Potemkin - Eddie is like 7-3 for Eddie. And the character Potemkin is a monster, but he is far from unbeatable, hell half the cast got loops that pretty much oneshots him.

3-7 in favor of Eddy! Wow! I must be "way off" then, swore he would not be more than 4-6 ...

anyway, Pot. only has a great disadvantage against Eddy-Test. (Which come very close to being broken, have a zonning bordering on absurd), he fights as an equal, or advantage against all other characters in the game ...

Note:lost in "practically a shot" is relatively common in GG. the world of "freaks" like Slayer, Pot., May. ..

I know very well what is lost in "one shot", I was a Chipp player.... lol! I have horrible traumas with Pot. / Slayer!

[dragontamer]

I don't mean that her speed makes her bad. I realize that her blockstun is actually pretty good during her drives, but she shouldn't NEED good blockstun and other weird properties for this mechanic. I'm saying that Noel's drive mechanic is a failure conceptually. The move speed should be fast enough and have enough range that it doesn't need weird properties like huge blockstun or invulnerability. Ideally her drive would be something that should be used at range and indeed SHOULD be extremely punishable up close especially if the opponent reads your drive chain. Having these weird not at all obvious invincible properties that the player has to memorize in order to punish properly is stupid in the first place. I STILL vividly remember ID-ing through a gap in Hellmonkey's D string at the first AX loketest and eating shit because Noel was invincible through the ID. I called bullshit, but nobody believed me because there is NO visual indication at all that any of those moves aside from spring-raid are invincible ANYWHERE.

To un-fail this mechanic, you would need to remove its weird-ass properties, namely the dumb blockstun and invincibility. And then in order to make it not suck, you would have to increase its range and speed.

I find your Noel experience questionable at best.

1. None of Noel's Drives, aside from 5D starter, are invincibile to Ragna's Inferno Divider. d.4D is high invulnerable, d.2D is low invulnerable. Inferno Divider manages to hit both of them because they're not invinicble vs ID. d.5D doesn't have any invuln at all, and even if it did, she wouldn't have any by the time your blockstun ends. If she was invulnerable during the Loketest, its definitely removed now.

Even then, 5D starter cannot be used in a blockstring vs Ragna, because it doesn't have active-frame invulnerability. Thus, doing 5C -> 5D will just get punished vs Inferno Divider. There is literally no way for Noel to be invulnerable vs Inferno Divider during a blockstring

2. Noel's Drives are level 4 and level 3 attacks. Her drive blockstun is approximately the same as Hazamas and Tagers. Nothing is out of the ordinary, aside from hitstop. Time doesn't stop as long when Noel is in a drive string, but you get used to it. As far as actual holes, shes got plenty of them. You don't need to memorize anything, mash Inferno Divider and Noel practically can't do anything about it aside from psychic 214Ds and stupid crap like that.

3. Spring Raid is not invincible at all.

4. Drive attacks have the most range and the most disjointed hitboxes out of all of Noel's attacks. Range is not their problem.

[whitevoid]

I don't mean that her speed makes her bad. I realize that her blockstun is actually pretty good during her drives, but she shouldn't NEED good blockstun and other weird properties for this mechanic. I'm saying that Noel's drive mechanic is a failure conceptually. The move speed should be fast enough and have enough range that it doesn't need weird properties like huge blockstun or invulnerability. Ideally her drive would be something that should be used at range and indeed SHOULD be extremely punishable up close especially if the opponent reads your drive chain. Having these weird not at all obvious invincible properties that the player has to memorize in order to punish properly is stupid in the first place. I STILL vividly remember ID-ing through a gap in Hellmonkey's D string at the first AX loketest and eating shit because Noel was invincible through the ID. I called bullshit, but nobody believed me because there is NO visual indication at all that any of those moves aside from spring-raid are invincible ANYWHERE.

To un-fail this mechanic, you would need to remove its weird-ass properties, namely the dumb blockstun and invincibility. And then in order to make it not suck, you would have to increase its range and speed.

Are you serious? There are visual indications that a move is invincible? I seriously need to may more attention when I play...

What the heck is IDing? Was he trying to buy beer from you?....

Wait. Hold on. Are you saying you have trouble against drive spam? I'm so confused.

[Spirit Juice]

ID = Inferno Divider.

[Mike Z]

Are you serious? There are visual indications that a move is invincible?

There are little white circles when you 'hit' a move that is invincible to your hit. How do people not see these things?

[Xtra_Zero]

more words

My Noel knowledge is definitely suspect. I haven't played many Noels in CS, so most of my experience is from CT, including the test I am referring to.

1) I don't actually play as Ragna. I was using ID as an example because (I swear) I saw it go through her drive in a situation a long time ago. ID was a bad example because I was talking about her invulnerability in general being a stupid mechanic and that just happens to bust through Chain Revolver outside of mistiming ID. I maintain that it's stupid to have invulnerability on these moves from a conceptual standpoint.

2) Excuse me. I assumed you meant blockstun because unless I'm mistaken hitstop has little to no bearing on how the moves actually interact. So yes, I do find Tager-equivalent blockstun on NOEL a bit strange, particularly since it's on moves that can be thrown out one after the other. As far as memorizing goes, it is definitely in your interest to know which moves Noel has available to her at any given time and the properties of said moves, particularly if you don't have a DP and many of Noel's moves have non-obvious invincibility.

3) Spring raid used to be invincible. I'm surprised it isn't anymore because it's the only drive she has that looks like it could be invincible.

4) Right. Strictly in terms of balance, the range and speed on Noel's drives is not what is wrong with her. Again, I'm not arguing this point. I am arguing that CONCEPTUALLY, Noel's drives being level 3 and 4 (thus huge blockstun) while being so easy to throw out repeatedly and otherwise being a fast character, doesn't fit. I am arguing that CONCEPTUALLY, these moves having obscured invincibility is a stupid idea. And IF you were to remove these stupid properties, the drive would need to be supplemented somehow, with which I suggested speed and range.

[-Ladon-]

There are little white circles when you 'hit' a move that is invincible to your hit. How do people not see these things?

Yo who looks for hits when you can just mash all day?

seriously, the lack of common mechanic knowledge in this thread is mindblowing

[Xtra_Zero]

Are you serious? There are visual indications that a move is invincible? I seriously need to may more attention when I play...

Yes. Generally uppercut-type moves are invincible. Generally 6A (grounded anti-air) type moves are upper/air invincible. These moves LOOK like they might have invincibility. It's not even that hard usually to guess the input of the move if you just look at the animation. However, Noel's drive animations and properties are totally out of left field. This makes her wacky properties even harder to remember because there is little to no coherence with what you see on the screen.

... At least until you end up attacking through the move. Then it's pretty obvious I guess.

[excelence]

Noel only have 3 drive moves that have invul/part body invul... i don't think that's any harder than remembering Bang attack that hit low / high

[Nakkiel]

Potemkin - Eddie is like 7-3 for Eddie. And the character Potemkin is a monster, but he is far from unbeatable, hell half the cast got loops that pretty much oneshots him.

Every time I see you post you're always wrong about something. Every single time.

[Alzarath]

Potemkin - Eddie is like 7-3 for Eddie. And the character Potemkin is a monster, but he is far from unbeatable, hell half the cast got loops that pretty much oneshots him.

7-3? no.

and what version of gg are you playing where ppl can kill pot in 1 combo?

do you even know what the fuck you're talking about?

*sigh*

[Hecatom]

the outstanding combo videos are just that, combo videos

[-Ladon-]

HOS vs. Eddie 9-1 in eddie's favor because kaqn got instakilled in 20 seconds

yo cool I can make up matchups too

[OrionXElite]

At this rate, Valkenhayn's gonna be the strongest character in the game TT_TT ... not that I mind, Im definitely gonna add em to my subs or main (who isn't >_>')... but Bangs glory days where so short lived -_-'... At least he's still the manliest character in the game... and epic... don't forget epic...

Im just praying to god that they realize the "NO 623B wall bounce" idea is a REALLY horrible one in the current location tests... GOD PLEAS, NOT THE WALL BOUNCE!!

The way I see it, Bang is getting out pretty good compared to Litchi and Ragna. He still has many ways to combo, but they're gonna be more CT style meaning you can't just auto pilot the same 4 hits ALL the time. I can already think of a couple things that would eliminate Wallbounce combos entirely and you still get 2-3 seals easy.

Although one thing I see this effecting is Bang's 2D. Without Wallbounce, its gonna be hard as hell to combo after it non CH unless they make it like CT. But eh, one thing down, nothing wrong with that. You're not Ragna with 1000000000 things down...I got big money Bang is still gonna be really good is CSII.

I'm curious about how Tager's new 6A will play into his game in CSII. I actually like the idea of him having less predictable normals in terms of actually hitting and shit. The Super Armor will be fun to torture scrubs with too. Although one thing I wouldn't mind seeing is the 4D feint Unlimited Tager has in CS. It wouldn't do much, BUT it would add a bit more to his mind games for sure.

[excelence]

HOS vs. Eddie 9-1 in eddie's favor because kaqn got instakilled in 20 seconds

yo cool I can make up matchups too

Kaqn need to mash Storm Viper moar

[Henaki]

Potemkin - Eddie is like 7-3 for Eddie. And the character Potemkin is a monster, but he is far from unbeatable, hell half the cast got loops that pretty much oneshots him.

lol

ironically pot is like one of the few characters eddie CAN'T one shot if he hits the first mixup.

that matchup still sucks but not for the reason you think.

[smooshman]

Potemkin - Eddie is like 7-3 for Eddie. And the character Potemkin is a monster, but he is far from unbeatable, hell half the cast got loops that pretty much oneshots him.

tell that to Johnny. lol at one shotting pot, motha fucka never dies.

Okay on topic, why hasn't jin gotten any rebalance love;_;

[DoomieJ]

There are little white circles when you 'hit' a move that is invincible to your hit. How do people not see these things?

I doubt many people actually watch the screen/characters when they play.

Jin didnt get changes because he doesnt need them.

[farranpoison]

Jin is so fine in CS. He better not get buffed up to his CT stupidity again.

[Partialartist]

Yeah, Jin's pretty solid. The changes they've made so far may seem minor, but with people above him getting nerfed, they could put him in a good position. More knockdowns and safer/longer pressure from those knockdowns sounds pretty good.

[evilben]

i dont know if this was mentioned... im at work and dont have time to sift through everything, but rachel is keeping her tempest dhalia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcOi2LEp1X0&feature=player_embedded

@1:11 shows her using it (this is from the Amusement Machine Show and was posted on shoryuken.com a few days back)

[mundus]

^ Why would they take out a DD? I think we all knew that wasn't going away, they will probably make it more useful though, since atm its pretty useless.

[evilben]

i just noticed there was something about it maybe being removed under the list of rachel changes and i remembered seeing it in this video for CSII, so i thought id throw this up here in the thread about csII changes

[dragontamer]

Yes. Generally uppercut-type moves are invincible. Generally 6A (grounded anti-air) type moves are upper/air invincible. These moves LOOK like they might have invincibility. It's not even that hard usually to guess the input of the move if you just look at the animation. However, Noel's drive animations and properties are totally out of left field. This makes her wacky properties even harder to remember because there is little to no coherence with what you see on the screen.

... At least until you end up attacking through the move. Then it's pretty obvious I guess.

Unless you... you know... watch the damn attack and notice the little circles that have them. Well, they don't look like circles anymore, but more like whiff-marks. (In CT they were giant obvious circle thingies. CS animations are more subtle, but are still clearly visible)

All I have to say about this is... learn the damn matchup! Its not Ragna's fault if I bum-rush him during his 2C. Its my fault for choosing to bum rush a move with +1 frames. Going into a game filled with exceptions to the rule, and expecting to get around only on heuristics and guesswork is suicidal at best.

Anyway, long story short:

1. Noel's drives don't have "dumb invincibility", especially if she's using her drives as pressure. They removed more invincibility from CT -> CS than you'd think. Only starting 5D has full attack invincibility, but thats like saying Rachel's Catchair and Bang's 5D has "dumb invincibility" (yes, I know its guardpoint, but its practically the same thing except Noel's can't be rapided out of. And I guess Noel's works off of attributes instead of high/low...). 5D does not have startup or active-frame invincibility, it can only be used safely vs predictable opponents.

Trust me, Noels have to memorize a hell of a lot more crap to use her invincibility than you have to memorize to beat her. That includes when and where to instant-block and attempt to use 5D.

2. The large blockstun on Noel's Drives are also not an issue, because she has almost no solid blockstrings in drive. Aside from very specific situations (well spaced d.6C and d.5A after some attacks and so forth...), all of Noel's blockstrings have holes in them. If anything, they need to put more blockstun on her drives to make it a solid tool.

[severin]

Whenever you post about noel's drive, I get a bit sad. You put so much effort into what is ultimately a shitty concept.