[CS2] Noel Vermillion Combo Discussion: Please let this land!

[Halcyone3]

that's what confused me about his problem too.

I've done proration tests before, but normally I actually need a rapid cancel in order to prorate the string badly enough that 5C > 3C doesn't work.

Then its the timing, has to be. I tried that 2B->2C->5C->3C on ragna like mentioned and i got it to hit 10-10.

[KraaL]

For j.D starter, I use this combo. It does more damage than the one listed on page 1 and is still practical imho:

j.D, d.5C, d.2D, d.6A, d.6C, 214A, 2B, 6C, B+C(whiff), 6C, 5D, d.6B, d.5D, d.5C, 236D (4310)

[HexaNoid]

Yeah, a lot of the combos in this thread are from very earlier Japanese videos so a fair bit of it is probably not optimal.

I apologise for this but I'll be cleaning this thread up while adding/removing combos at some point this week, so I'll make sure I include that combo as well as all the other better combos we've found so far.

[GunslingerSonic]

Some good 6C Air CH Midscreen. Sorta Flashy but good to use.

Samples:

6C CH > Jump > landing j.B/landing j.C > 6C > Throw Miss > 6C > Throw Miss > 6C > 5D > 236A > 66 > 6C > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5D > d.5C > Bloom Trigger. I believe 3100 or 3200 around there.

6C CH > Jump > landing j.B/landing j.C > 6C > j.D > reload > 2B > 6C > 22B > 22BBBC > Dash Cancel > 6C > 22B > 6D > d.6C > d.5D > d.5C > Bloom Trigger.

Yes you can Haida Loop your opponent from this but how many reps, I don't know.

Video Demonstration

[HexaNoid]

I've fully updated the front page of this thread now. If you feel there are any good combos that I've missed out that need to be added, feel free to speak up about it and I'll put them in.

Sorry for the wait guys and I hope you find this new thread a lot more useful.

[DXcellence718]

Hey guys I'm sure this was probably mentioned somewhere(too many pages to look) but I'm having trouble linking 6C to 22b, it seems that they tech out. I was told to delay the 22b but still no results

Any ideas for me, I would love to get this down since a general amount of Noels combos uses this

I apologize for asking such a noobish question

Edited August 14, 2011 by DXcellence718

[SkyKing]

Hey guys I'm sure this was probably mentioned somewhere(too many pages to look) but I'm having trouble linking 6C to 22b, it seems that they tech out. I was told to delay the 22b but still no results

Any ideas for me, I would love to get this down since a general amount of Noels combos uses this

I apologize for asking such a noobish question

There are several factors into the haida. You can fix that height and distance problem by doing 6C > B+C > 6C > 22B. Also, they are right in that if you only do one 6C > you will have to delay the 22B input quite a bit. Just look for her guns to be just before they are getting into position for her to fire the second part of the move. It's all down to adjustments.

Also, you might want to test this on several characters. I know some may not be able to be picked up with a single 6C, so you may need to do a throw whiff cancel > 6C to adjust the height. Good luck with it!

EDIT: This is more a question for Noel's mechanics rather than combo specific, so I believe it fits more in the Beginner thread than here.

Edited August 14, 2011 by SkyKing

[DXcellence718]

Thanks for the help, going to try this today and sorry i didnt post over there, i figured i could ask this in the combo thread. My mistake

[SansProtocol]

So, after watching one of Luna's newest vids showing off how meh j.B is as an overhead, I got bored and screwed around a bit with Noel. I don't know if anyone has already found this or what not, but here's something I found interesting:

Basically, if 5A/5B are blocked by a standing opponent, you can mix them up with fuzzy guard/instant overhead them with j.A or hit them low with 2B/2C. You can't combo much off of rising j.A to my knowledge. However, this mix-up situation serves to rattle and confuse an opponent who was getting too comfortable with blocking low and watching for overheads. The resets off hits/j.D trap (upper body invul) on blocks are just generally safe and effective ways to get your Drive starters off of rising Fuzzy Guard j.A. Hopefully, this will help and thanks for entertaining my crazy idea.

[Arcknight]

You can also use Muzzle Flitter off the 5B with that same mix-up opportunity. I remember Luna mentioning that a while back. I am not sure if you can squeeze that into your diagram though lol.

[LunaKage]

Noted, however "Safely" frame traps into j.D is a big misnomer, because if they block j.D, they pretty much get to punish you for free.

[Zeromus_X]

Any tips for Noel's airthrow combo? Right now I'm just doing airthrow > 2B > 6C > A Optic > dash 6C > drive bnb. I have trouble connecting the 22B~C. The times I do get it, the other character is too high for me to to A Optic > 6C > Drive bnb.

Edit: Also, what's the timing for the RC in the throw > RC > 2/4D midscreen combos?

Edited August 17, 2011 by Zeromus_X

[LunaKage]

Any tips for Noel's airthrow combo? Right now I'm just doing airthrow > 2B > 6C > A Optic > dash 6C > drive bnb. I have trouble connecting the 22B~C. The times I do get it, the other character is too high for me to to A Optic > 6C > Drive bnb.

Basic:

Air Grab > 2B > 6C > Throw Wiff > 6C > 22B > 22BBBC~66 > 66C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5D > d.5C > 236D

Rachel/Hakumen/Tager Only:

Air Grab > 6A > 6C > Slight Delay > 22B > 22BBBC~66 > 66C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5D > d.5C > 236D

Advanced:

Air Grab > 66 > 2B > 6C > Throw Wiff > 6C > 22B > 22BBBBBBC~66 > 66C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5D > d.5C > 236D

[SansProtocol]

Noted, however "Safely" frame traps into j.D is a big misnomer, because if they block j.D, they pretty much get to punish you for free.

It safely frame traps into j.D if they mash out after j.A. If you read your opponent right, they'll try to do something or fall out of hit/blockstun and you'll get the reset into j.D. If your opponent guessed right, then you can just j.4D the next time and hit them from behind and low. Secondly, you can easily cross an opponent up and it makes it all that more confusing.

It's not a misnomer as what happens after j.D was none of my concern as you should get the hit into great damage if you can read well. Otherwise, there are other options to pursue to shake your opponent up.

[LunaKage]

It safely frame traps into j.D if they mash out after j.A. If you read your opponent right, they'll try to do something or fall out of hit/blockstun and you'll get the reset into j.D. If your opponent guessed right, then you can just j.4D the next time and hit them from behind and low. Secondly, you can easily cross an opponent up and it makes it all that more confusing.

It's not a misnomer as what happens after j.D was none of my concern as you should get the hit into great damage if you can read well. Otherwise, there are other options to pursue to shake your opponent up.

Its IS a misnomer, because you have to know all of the possibilities, anybody reading what you posted would be assuming "safe" as in "no problems for any outcome", obviously as an option goes it's a good one for the purpose it serves, it's just dangerous, just like the 214A mixup, it's good as hell on paper, but still unsafe. However, with 50 Heat for a rapid Cancel the j.D thing is made safe, and a very good idea at that point, I'll test some things out to figure out the best options from there.

[HexaNoid]

You don't actually need to do a throw whiff after an airthrow if you do 2B > 6C > 22B. If you time it right, you can get the Silencer to hit everyone.

Also, for when you're in the corner:

Air Grab > 6A/2B > 6C(2) > 66~6C > 4D > d.236D > 6C > 22B > 22BBBBBC~66 > 6C > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5D > d.5C > d.236D

[LunaKage]

You don't actually need to do a throw whiff after an airthrow if you do 2B > 6C > 22B. If you time it right, you can get the Silencer to hit everyone.

Also, for when you're in the corner:

Air Grab > 6A/2B > 6C(2) > 66~6C > 4D > d.236D > 6C > 22B > 22BBBBBC~66 > 6C > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5D > d.5C > d.236D

He was saying how he had problems with the 22B after a single 6C, so I gave him the throw wiff options, which are my personal favorite(notice how they are taking ALL OF MY FAVORITE SHIT OUT IN CS2+ REGARDING NORMALS)

[SansProtocol]

Its IS a misnomer, because you have to know all of the possibilities, anybody reading what you posted would be assuming "safe" as in "no problems for any outcome", obviously as an option goes it's a good one for the purpose it serves, it's just dangerous, just like the 214A mixup, it's good as hell on paper, but still unsafe. However, with 50 Heat for a rapid Cancel the j.D thing is made safe, and a very good idea at that point, I'll test some things out to figure out the best options from there.

Ahhh, I got you. I just meant that "safely into" was the time of the frame trap between j.A and j.D itself.

Hell, I don't even know if this was brought up before and I hope it helps.

NOTE: I tested it on Plat, Makoto, Bang, Ragna, and Tager so it seems universal. If the fuzzy guard j.A works, you'll get an extra two frames of hitstun (14). Good luck with the tests.

[HexaNoid]

He was saying how he had problems with the 22B after a single 6C, so I gave him the throw wiff options, which are my personal favorite(notice how they are taking ALL OF MY FAVORITE SHIT OUT IN CS2+ REGARDING NORMALS)

Oh right. I thought he was just having trouble with the timing for OpticA after the dash cancel, since he said he was catching them too high. Either way, the throw whiff method is good too, so yeah.

Arcsys is out to get you, son.

Edit: Also, what's the timing for the RC in the throw > RC > 2/4D midscreen combos?

You have to get the RC RIGHT as the first attack connects and the 2D has to follow up immediately after. It's pretty tight, but if you can get the timing right it shouldn't be too bad.

[Klazzix]

Does j.A work on an opponent that crouches after 5A 5B? Or will it miss? I'm having a hard time understanding the whole fuzzy guard thing.

[SansProtocol]

Does j.A work on an opponent that crouches after 5A 5B? Or will it miss? I'm having a hard time understanding the whole fuzzy guard thing.

It's called "fuzzy guard" as you are using the game's fuzzy logic against itself to create a blocking situation that normally wouldn't happen. When you block an attack standing, your hitbox will be as though you were standing for the entirety of the blockstun. The game will still register your crouch block but you'll still have a standing hitbox. This "glitch" allows you to use instant overheads to hit a crouching opponent you normally wouldn't.

[Klazzix]

Ah I understand better now, thanks for the explanation Sans.

[Arcknight]

It's called "fuzzy guard" as you are using the game's fuzzy logic against itself to create a blocking situation that normally wouldn't happen. When you block an attack standing, your hitbox will be as though you were standing for the entirety of the blockstun. The game will still register your crouch block but you'll still have a standing hitbox. This "glitch" allows you to use instant overheads to hit a crouching opponent you normally wouldn't.

Wait wait a sec here. Are you saying there are times when reacting well to pressure can still get you blown up? Not that I am saying I am some kind of blocking guru or anything, however, there are times when I just scratch my head and wonder how the hell XY or Z hit me. Anyways, that is a big help clearing that up for me as well. Information is power.

[Halcyone3]

Wait wait a sec here. Are you saying there are times when reacting well to pressure can still get you blown up? Not that I am saying I am some kind of blocking guru or anything, however, there are times when I just scratch my head and wonder how the hell XY or Z hit me. Anyways, that is a big help clearing that up for me as well. Information is power.

No, this only affects the hitbox, not the blocking.

If you block a jump-cancellable attack standing (say, 10 hitstun frames, just an example). Then for those 10 frames, your hitbox will be as standing, meaning its tall. If the opponent throws a low before 10 frames are done and u block low, even though your hitbox is tall as if you were standing, you are still crouch blocking, so your character blocks it (and incidentally also switches to crouching hitbox the very instant the attack is actually blocked). But say instead the opponent jump cancels into j.A and you switch to crouch blocking. Normally, you would crouch and his jumping attack would whiff, but since u are in standing hitstun, your character's hitbox is still tall, so the jumping attack will hit.

This trick is usually done to do low jumping overheads that would not normally hit a croucher. Also no, this does not make your defense blow up, it still allows you to block lows by holding 1 and overheads by holding 4, if your pressure is getting blown up, then you are either not reacting as well as you think, or you're playing online.

[Arcknight]

Thank you for that prompt reply Halcyone. That makes perfect sense now. I am going to have to play around with that. And ya, guilty of playing online. No other choice! :/