[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[BatousaiJ]

EDIT: Serious post/not turning this into the GD: The only thing I worry about for CSE Tsubaki is Mugen ._.;;;; I hardlynever use Mugen to begin with....><

Hell, I use Mugen all the time even when it's impractical and not really worth it for the style points.

Think how much I'll use it now since it's actually a good way to get max damage in many situations.

For all of you that haven't really been using Mugen at all... prepare to get fa-bu-lous~

[LunarSelenia]

Hell, I use Mugen all the time even when it's impractical and not really worth it for the style points.

Think how much I'll use it now since it's actually a good way to get max damage in many situations.

For all of you that haven't really been using Mugen at all... prepare to get fa-bu-lous~

Can't wait for that lol (no sarcasm intended). I wonder what her Mugen combos will look like due to all of the changes~

Want CSE in my hands noooowwww Tsubaki <3

[Rhiya]

All I expect from air mugen is xx j.c> j.cc> j.214214D> j.236D>j.214D> 2CC> (236D?)> stuff.

[pktazn]

I see a lot complaints about how Tsu works mechanically.

Honestly, can see why people are putting a lot of emphasis on her mechanics.

I think I can say that everyone agrees that she’s a character who gains charges and from there chooses how to use those to beat the opponent. However, from here, the opinion of whether or not her risk/reward for her charging and what she gains from it diverges. CS2 Tsubaki is a huge step in the right direction (SBO baby) and for Extend it feels like they’re testing the waters for certain things though a lot of the changes are weird for her or did not need to be changed the way it did and for some other characters as well.

Admittedly, I think that the risk/reward is less than stellar than one would expect when you have charges though our unblockable 22D can lead to fun life. BUT this is hinges on how fast she gains charges, for me at least. If she gains charges fast, the D version for her moves as they are now are fine, again for me. But if it’s slow I would expect that her D moves did slightly more.

I feel that ArcSys has to decide is what they want her to do (which is apparently to use Mugen more in Extend according to Mori). Do they want us to have less than stellar damage normally but then gain big buffs when we have charges or the opposite? How fast should we be able to get charges and what are some methods for getting that charge?

In CS2 it was basically: what we get from charges is ok but since we have fast charging it balanced out since it led us to being able to gain mix-up and more options compared to how we are normally while still being able to hold up on our own without them and it worked. Tsubaki is probably the most balanced character in CS2. She’s good but she’s not overwhelming or overpowered.

In Extend I feel that her difficulty in getting charges is really what hurt her, among other things, which hurts even more if we are to believe Mori in doing our damage through Mugen. Although, gaining charges appears to be getting better watching Kuresu and a few other Tsus and Mugen does seem to last a little bit longer than in CS2. Do I still believe that we’ll find a way to work around/with it? Of course, especially with apparently 90% of the Tsubakis importing Extend! :D

I started to really think about this after a small discussion with Guardian on Saturday about Tsubaki and it got me thinking about her basic mechanics and what they could do to make her better fundamentally. However, I enjoy what I can do with Tsubaki and even though I know she can be better, all I can do is work with what I have to win and give my opponent as good a fight as I can give them~

.... That ended up being longer than I intended.

EDIT:

I dunno - is 4.9k in the corner off an unblockable good? I'm not sure it is - other characters can get awfully close to that without having to run away or score a hard knockdown to fill up a special gauge.

Yes, considering we probably have what I consider the most practical unblockable out of the whole cast at the cost of one charge.

Edited December 13, 2011 by pktazn

[LunarSelenia]

EDIT:

Yes, considering we probably have what I consider the most practical unblockable out of the whole cast at the cost of one charge.

Kuresu gives me hope for CSE Tsubaki really. He seems to be doing well regardless of her changes and I think that's something to look forward to. Just because she is low tier doesn't mean it's god impossible to win. Watching Kuresu from when he first showed up with CSE Tsubaki until now makes me want to get this game ASAP to figure things out. At first I was unsure about her due to hearing Mugen will be relied on more (thinking it in terms of: "well then why don't you make Ragna's playstyle revolve around BK or something") but I'm quite optimistic about her. At first I was worried but, I always considered Tsubaki to be a character where you have to work for your wins always. Charge, slight disadvantage against a good majority of the cast, etc. I don't mind sticking with her in CSE.

To add what pk said above:

I have to agree with you 100% on that one. I'm glad they haven't changed the Unblockable property on that one. It's one of my favorite things about Tsubaki (other than her sexy IAD/j.236A(w) combos), able to mess people up and scare them even when they're blocking =3.

[BatousaiJ]

Almost 4 AM and I'm not tired enough to sleep.

Gonna be one of those nights, I suppose.

Anyway, to answer the idea of risk/reward in more depth since you guys seem serious about it for some reason...

Balance in competitive gaming has always been a work of trial and error where you have to account for ludicrous amount of factors and even when you think you've considered everything, something else inevitably comes along that upsets the balance and makes you rethink the whole scale once more.

It's been that way for every competitive game more advanced than pong and genres like fighting games and RTS will also have the most difficult time at getting the balance in order.

There will never really be a "perfect" balance in any advanced competitive game and the best you can ever hope to you is get closer and closer to the happy medium.

We can all chime in with our opinions about what might make the character better and it might all sound fine and dandy in theory but once you put it into practice you might end up with unforeseen consequences that may even break the game. We can all talk big about how arcsys is dropping the ball and making obvious mistakes everywhere and while that might be true to some degree, there's a good chance that if we had a hand in it, it'd be a lot worse. After all, it's said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Personally though, I think BB as a whole has been getting progressively better. From CT > CS 1 > CS 2.

I haven't played extend yet for a significant(any) amount of time to say that it's better than CS 2 and although most seem to have cast their vote on the game being worse already with little to no experience with it for some reason but I'll hold my judgement until I get some time in it.

It's fun to speculate and wish for things sometimes but I'm more of the person that lives in the now. I like spending my time less about discussing "what would make her a better character" but rather "how can I apply what she has now to make her a better character".

Also, I feel if by some worst case scenario that Tsubaki does turn out to be an awful character in extend and not viable at all for competitive play, I'll still stick with it and beat people with an inferior character paying my dues and trying harder than everyone else to win.

In the long run, it'll make me a better player because it won't allow me as many room for mistakes so my playstyle will get tighter and more consistent- ultimately making those wins feel even more satisfying.

Then, most likely she'll get buffed later down the line if she really was that bad and then I'll take everything I've learned and it'll be the CS 1 to CS 2 transition all over again where I'll be beating people down that I had trouble with before with relative ease and set out to find stronger opponents.

Worst or best case scenario... I'm looking forward to it all the same.

You guys wish you were half as awesome positive as I am~

[Velvien]

I haven't played extend yet for a significant(any) amount of time to say that it's better than CS 2 and although most seem to have cast their vote on the game being worse already with little to no experience with it for some reason but I'll hold my judgement until I get some time in it.

It's fun to speculate and wish for things sometimes but I'm more of the person that lives in the now. I like spending my time less about discussing "what would make her a better character" but rather "how can I apply what she has now to make her a better character".

Also, I feel if by some worst case scenario that Tsubaki does turn out to be an awful character in extend and not viable at all for competitive play, I'll still stick with it and beat people with an inferior character paying my dues and trying harder than everyone else to win.

In the long run, it'll make me a better player because it won't allow me as many room for mistakes so my playstyle will get tighter and more consistent- ultimately making those wins feel even more satisfying.

Then, most likely she'll get buffed later down the line if she really was that bad and then I'll take everything I've learned and it'll be the CS 1 to CS 2 transition all over again where I'll be beating people down that I had trouble with before with relative ease and set out to find stronger opponents.

Worst or best case scenario... I'm looking forward to it all the same.

Pretty much this. I don't really care where she ends up in the tier list; she still looks fun as hell to me. Even if she is absolutely terrible, all that means to me is that I'll just have to step up my game.

Also, why am I still up?

[pktazn]

I haven't played extend yet for a significant(any) amount of time to say that it's better than CS 2 and although most seem to have cast their vote on the game being worse already with little to no experience with it for some reason but I'll hold my judgement until I get some time in it.

It's fun to speculate and wish for things sometimes but I'm more of the person that lives in the now. I like spending my time less about discussing "what would make her a better character" but rather "how can I apply what she has now to make her a better character".

You guys wish you were half as awesome positive as I am~

The only reason we're all talking about her like this is because we can't play her yet though again about 90% of you are going to be playing her soon. No one can really figure out what to do with her with her considering no one has her yet so it's hard to talk about anything besides our impressions and opinions that we've formed from videos, but even then people seem somewhat reluctant to talk about that.

But BB has indeed been getting better slowly but surely considering this is only their fourth iteration.

Did my post seem negative? It was mostly to explain why people were focusing on her mechanics, as well as my own thoughts on it cuz why not, and not to put down Extend Tsubaki. I don't really care after CS1 lol. I'd stick with Tsubaki regardless though I would think that would be obvious~

Edited December 13, 2011 by pktazn

[Tsubaki 5B]

lol you guys should read the title of this thread rather than call everything negative or complaining were suppose to talk about her mechanics and changes i mean I'm not saying everyone doesn't complain but a lot of it isn't lol it's a discussion so talk about shit

@pk that was negative?

@Batousai welcome to my world bro

[shad0whiei]

I figure if anyone has a problem with her mechanic they'd jump ship anyways. As far as extend goes I'm very much excitd after getting a small dose of it and overall she didn't feel too different from cs2. Every thing just takes adjustment and I don't necessarily think she's bottom tier at all in extend. Nothing feels as bad as CT Rachel to Cs1 Rachel in aspects of nerfs and even eventually ppl got some crazy stuff with her.

Her charge isn't slow enough to hurt her gameplay IMHO. Her dmg is a little low from what I'm used to but that's not too bad and maybe mugen might actually play quite nice with the dmg of some things. Not sure yet.

Overall, Tsubaki is far from doomed in Extend. She didn't get all the buffs like Hakumen did; but even with all the nerfs to ragna in Cs2 he was still strong and viable.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Airk]

I probably do come off a little bit negative, because I soldiered through CS1, and while I'm still not particularly fierce, I like the feeling of not being at a heavy disadvantage.

I'm also somewhat arrogant, and unfortunately, life has proven me out on a lot of this stuff - I regrettably AM better at a lot of technical nitty-gritty balancy type stuff than a lot of people. :P That's not to say that I've necessarily got a grasp on this whole situation or anything, but it's not doing anything dissaude me. Mostly what we have here though, is thorough disapproval not so much of the changes themselves, but of the apparent motivation or lack thereof. When I can't understand - by looking at what someone is doing - why they are doing it, it tends to shake my faith in the idea that THEY know why they are doing it.

The collection of changes to Tsubaki feel, as Pk points out, as if ArcSys isn't really sure what they're trying to do with her. This, fundamentally, is what frustrates me. It speaks to me of a less than methodical approach to the situation as well - with these sweeping changes coming in yearly updates based on what I regard as almost hilariously little testing. I don't like that. It rubs me the wrong way.

As a result, I am probably going to continue playing CS2 for a while. I'll cheerfully theoryfight as more hard info on extend comes out, but I'm going to be a late adopter.

Okay, so that was a whole big messy pile of justifications. I REALLY need to stop talking about this stuff until I have some real data. Changelists, people. It's almost 2012. Super secret figure out what happened yourselves patches went out with the 90s.

[HajinShinobi]

@BatousaiJ: Whether some people here are negative nancies or not, it's "discussion". And that's exactly what this thread is for, discussion.

Also, I've been saying this all this time that we just need to get the game and start playing it for awhile before making any concrete judgements about anything. But of course I'm usually going unheard lol, so meh.

[Airk]

Also, I've been saying this all this time that we just need to get the game and start playing it for awhile before making any concrete judgements about anything. But of course I'm usually going unheard lol, so meh.

If it makes you feel better, _I'VE_ said that. So I'm not just ignoring you. I'm ignoring me.

[BatousaiJ]

@BatousaiJ: Whether some people here are negative nancies or not, it's "discussion". And that's exactly what this thread is for, discussion.

Also, I've been saying this all this time that we just need to get the game and start playing it for awhile before making any concrete judgements about anything. But of course I'm usually going unheard lol, so meh.

I never said you guys can't "discuss" things, I was just explaining my own preference in the matter~

Don't like it?

Too bad~

Also, people get heard more often when they say more interesting things.

Just sayin'

Burnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[HajinShinobi]

Troll move, but it's exactly what I expect from you.

[Tsubaki 5B]

it just seems like when the words tsubaki and mechanics are in the same post it's usually deemed as complain anyways i'm done lol that's just my two cents on the matter hopefully we didn't drop a salty spirit bomb on each other lol. i shall see you guys on the battlefield on EX

if everyone isn't too salty

@batousai when did any of us say that you said we can't discuss anything lol I'm just giving my point of view on things that's all i understand your point.

[Errol]

I just want to say that I'm looking forward to BJ's combo video. also the mook, whenever that comes out

[Kiba]

Dat disrespect

It's most likely one of those "once in a blue moon" kind of phenomenon that we won't really have to account for- just be aware that it exists.

If the hitbox has been improved vertically as some people suspect, it should nullify the whole getting air thrown out of the DP as a counter but we'll see.

-Inb4sum1saysImcomplaingwhichisntthecase-

Edited December 15, 2011 by Kiba

[BatousaiJ]

We were talking about 5A through 623A as far as the the weird phenomenon was talked about.

Looks like the DP still has the same dead zone as CS 2 before though. Ah well~

[Kiba]

This actually makes me really curious.

Where is the hitbox for 623X? And how big is it??

[BatousaiJ]

I think it literately is the little sword pieces coming out of the ground and nothing else.

So the dead zone would be right at the upper right corner of that hitbox since the move goes up like / direction.

The D variation has more sword pieces coming out of the ground so the hitbox(at least horizontally) seems better. 623C seems to go the highest so it has the highest vertical hitbox.

I'm not certain of course but it's something I've observed...

[Airk]

Yeah, they did sortof a sloppy job with the hitboxes for projectiles when they added the hitbox screenshots to the frame data. For example, look at the hitbox for Dead Spike - they show the projectile entirely seperately. It's just that whoever did the Tsubaki hitboxes didn't bother. :P Sadly, I don't know how they extracted them, but yes, it's safe to say that the hitbox isn't much larger than the actual visible sword-projectile bit.

[Errol]

if anything, dp hit box looks worse to me. *shrug*

[BatousaiJ]

xxxx /

xxx /

oo /

o /

o/

(x) = Dead zone.

For the D variation the dead zone is smaller because there are more swords(3 different / I think?).

Edited December 15, 2011 by BatousaiJ

[Kiba]

That's quite emotional.

Nevertheless, thank you for the input Bat. It makes it much more clear.