[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[BatousaiJ]

To be fair, 5A was the most practical starter in that vid. And there was one 5A combo.

What matters are the starters you'll actually hit people with. I'd rather know what I can do off 5B than a double gold burst combo off 3CC. I'd rather know what I can do after 6A, FC or not, than 5 charge mugen combos. I'd rather know what my max is off 2b or 2bb than a clean 6C.

People are complaining because you promised new tech, and then, well, made a combo video with mostly (admittedly pretty cool) combo video combos. If you want people to believe we're okay, you need to show them her neutral isn't shit and that she's still playable even with the nerfs she has. Show them 5C is viable as a poke. Show them 5A has crazy good prorate for a jab. Show them how good charge cancel is in pressure. Once people understand her level zero game is passable, they'll care about her higher level stuff.

The funny thing is, I did show 5A has crazy good proration by choosing to do that 5A > 5C > 2C > 214D IAD combo. Hell, in that one combo I showed that it was possible to actually combo 5A > 5C now unlike in CS 2 and showed that for a change something off 5A can in fact go into full IAD.

Then I showed 5C as a viable poke because I used it constantly to start with and you could see for yourself how fast(and more flexible) it is compared to before. I omitted the use of 5B in the video specifically for a very good reason. It didn't happen by accident and that's the point that seems most lost by some people.

Also, you really think I didn't come through with some new tech like I promised?

Things like fuzzy cross over j.C air mugen, full corner combo extender, one charge mid screen variation and others which have never even been seen on a JPN match video(that I've seen and I've seen most of the ones Audrina posted up).

Also, if you think I concentrated mostly on stuff that I would consider "combo video" material, you're seriously underestimating me.

You think I can't pull out more impressive stuff RCing and using more charges unnecessarily to make it more flashy? Go ahead and watch the video and see how many mugen combos I used that used more than 2 charges.

I call my videos "exhibition"(vol1-3 if you remember) but I don't concentrate on flashy only or just really simple easy stuff, I do a combination of stuff. Go back to my previous videos and you'll see that's true for all of them.

As Airk pointed out, I shouldn't be taking comments too seriously since because "lol internet" and all but to see something I the work and time to put together being so totally misinterpreted is really discouraging.

This.

Except I don't smoke.

[Rhiya]

The funny thing is, I did show 5A has crazy good proration by choosing to do that 5A > 5C > 2C > 214D IAD combo. Hell, in that one combo I showed that it was possible to actually combo 5A > 5C now unlike in CS 2 and showed that for a change something off 5A can in fact go into full IAD.

Bat, 5A could always go into full IAD.

And people need things pointed out. Not everyone is as fast to pick up on things as you'd like.

Then I showed 5C as a viable poke because I used it constantly to start with and you could see for yourself how fast(and more flexible) it is compared to before. I omitted the use of 5B in the video specifically for a very good reason. It didn't happen by accident and that's the point that seems most lost by some people.

That shows them what it does as a combo starter. To show people it's a legit poke, they need to understand what sort of speed and range it has -- something you don't see if you just show them combos starting with it. 5B used to be a good poke not only because it was plus, but also because it controlled good space and came out quickly (two things it still has; it most certainly controls more space than 5C could ever hope to and is roughly the same speed).

Things like fuzzy cross over j.C air mugen, full corner combo extender, one charge mid screen variation and others which have never even been seen on a JPN match video(that I've seen and I've seen most of the ones Audrina posted up).

Fuzzy j.C mugen was hype, yes, but it's the fuzzy j.C that matters. crossover j.C> mugen would be retardedly hard to confirm in a real match, and I'd bet money all people saw was AIR MUGEN COMBO OMG.

The combo extender and the new 1 charge combo were pretty legit, yes.

Also, if you think I concentrated mostly on stuff that I would consider "combo video" material, you're seriously underestimating me.

You think I can't pull out more impressive stuff RCing and using more charges unnecessarily to make it more flashy?

I know you can blow me the fuck up without trying, with the spare time to laugh and do unnecessarily hype shit.

Believe me, I know.

Go ahead and watch the video and see how many mugen combos I used that used more than 2 charges.

Right now, people don't even think Tsubaki can GET 2 charge. Look around the threads: someone asked when you charge, and Airk was just like "after a knockdown, that's about it." When they have misconceptions like that, the combos themselves won't do any good.

I'm going to bold this, so it doesn't get lost in this giant text response, but:

I think something that could probably help a lot to get people to understand would be to annotate your video. When the 5A combo comes up, note that it showcases how 5a>5c works, how 5a prorates well enough for you to IAD off it. When that one charge combo comes up, make a note that this is really important tech. That was like, what, 3.5k midscreen, with legit knockdown? That's nuts in CSEX. Just putting that out there would help you out a lot.

[BatousaiJ]

Bat, 5A could always go into full IAD.

And people need things pointed out. Not everyone is as fast to pick up on things as you'd like.

I think something that could probably help a lot to get people to understand would be to annotate your video. When the 5A combo comes up, note that it showcases how 5a>5c works, how 5a prorates well enough for you to IAD off it. When that one charge combo comes up, make a note that this is really important tech. That was like, what, 3.5k midscreen, with legit knockdown? That's nuts in CSEX. Just putting that out there would help you out a lot.

I never really used 5A > 5B > 2C > 214D too much because of all the DP whiff combos in CS 2 so I must've forgotten, thanks for the correction.

As for your ideas on how I should discreetly point things out, put notations and what not, I get where you're coming from but from a editing and overall cohesive point of view, it's better left to strictly tutorial videos and I'm not really into making those.

I personally like making things that can be enjoyable to watch for people that don't even play this game, not a singular resource for Tsubaki players only.

I'm not foolish enough to think that I can please everyone but I'm rather disappointed all the same. It feels like this time, I was unable to improve upon my previous work and that is a great failure in my book.

[Rhiya]

You could just put it in the video info box. That'd be less obstructive of the actual video, and still have the info there.

[Errol]

I have no idea why you would ever do that but I'll give it a try in the lab later.

Lemme know, I don't have the game!

[BatousaiJ]

You could just put it in the video info box. That'd be less obstructive of the actual video, and still have the info there.

No.

I sleep now.

Lemme know, I don't have the game!

5A > 2C doesn't work.

[Errol]

with 2c hitting crouchers, I though 5a->2c might be a decent frame trap, whether it combos or not?

[Kiba]

I'm getting a bunch of comments from people that most of the combos in the video aren't feasible because they don't start with 5B.

I've wasted my time.

They might not have any kind of understanding of EX Tsubaki and so it's very likely they don't understand the situation with her. It is up to them to find out why that is. I saw some of the youtube comments but I didn't feel inclined to explain to them because well, it's YT. If anything, they could be directed to DL and get involved with the forums to gain a better understanding of why that is.

You didn't waste your time Bat. To me, your video shows the variation that EX Tsubaki possesses. Mugen combos show that Tsubaki can attain ALOT of damage; DP whiff combos are still viable and air mugen opens up alot more options. Any player can easily see that none of your combos start with 5B, but I guess most people don't have common sense and look for the underlying reasons, and so to them it's not practical. Your video gave us an idea of what EX Tsubaki is capable of and that she still has a variety of combos that people thought she lacked.

If I had to critique your vid, I only would've liked to see more combo variations starters of a CH 236D and 5C . Like you just said it's not supposed to be geared to be a tutorial vid which can be done much later as more things are discovered about her. In the end, I don't care about seeing max damage combos of a 2B or seeing combo starters from a 5B which apparently has 85 P1 compared to 5C which is 100. If you annotated the vid, I think it would ruin it.

It's just a combo vid, not a tutorial vid....

If you want to see what you can do off a 5B, then take a look at Daedron's combo vid. That should give you an idea of what you can do of a 5B.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Kiba

[pktazn]

It's just a combo vid, not a tutorial vid....

This.

YT is very meh when it comes to comments depending on the video and sometimes trying to explain things to them is more trouble than it's worth. If anything, they're still in a CS2 mindset rather than an Extend mindset.

With that said... to be fair to them, it's probably hard for them to think of how they can do all that since it's well-known she gains charges slower than in CS2 and was nerfed. No one likes hearing the word "nerf" especially on YT where you're automatically demoted to unplayable the minute it's mentioned. I'm sure a good portion of them have not kept up with her, do not go to DL, and have not imported Extend. It's easier to see what was being done if you at least freqent these forums but most won't really know what to think until they're able to play themselves andeventhenimguessingmostonyoutubewilldropherlolol.

Don't let it get you down J. I don't think it was a failure and it gave me some ideas of what I could try to do when I'm finally able to play her.

[Errol]

Step down from the ledge..

[shad0whiei]

Failure? Not hardly. I personally fell in love with those mugen combos. 2 charge isn't hard to get and the dmg and options off of it was nice. I like that they made her slightly more reliant on meter. Air mugen seems quite viable and personally I don't this the lack of 5B is a bad thing. I'd much rather see what she is capable of and work on that stuff rather than just 5B stuff.

Very nice work on the video. Really made me wish I had the money to import all the more haha

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Airk]

To be honest, _I_ am still depressed, but I wouldn't regard that as a failure, because as I said previously, there is really no combo under the sun that could fix it. I'm facing a character who is, at the very least, MUCH more technical than anything I've ever been able to do anything with before. I can get by okay in CS2 because I can play basic, without being too fancy and since the character has enough strengths at neutral, it's okay that my combos are sub-par, and my footsies are iffy. It gives me stuff I can clearly set myself towards improving on, while still meaning that I can beat people who have better combo skills than me but less good fundamentals. I really don't see that happening EX without massive improvement on my part, because I'm going to get bloody well blown up by people who can still produce 4k+ in the corner, while I'm going to be stuck without any of the strengths I'm used to that help me open people up so I can get an edge there.

When you kindof suck at combos (Look, I've been practicing IAD stuff for months, and it's at the point where I can -usually- get it off a naked 214D/CH 214A/B/C/CH 22A/B/C, and forget about actually using it to improve damage inside any other sort of combo. I even drop j.214A<whiff> corner stuff way more than I'd like for purposes of being competitive) then having your character's solid neutral game nerfed to hell isn't going to be compensated for by any sort of "Hey guys, our combos are still good!" stuff. =/

Fine. I'm bad. My execution is shoddy, I mash, and I can't block Gauntlet Hades, but I could still win a little in CS2. I'm really not optimistic about my EX game. But that's my fault and no one else's.

[BatousaiJ]

Ah well, I first mentioned the whole issue as a half joke thing, kind of making fun of the people who didn't "get" it.

I didn't expect to really receive a serious response about it and when I did, I felt like I needed to elaborate on what I wanted to do in the video.

Anyhow, it is what it is and I'm over it.

No big whoop.

Ahem, back on topic, people!

[Tsubaki 5B]

"walks in the in room" hey guys.......oh did something happen . also the dp whiff combo it seems really difficult to use j.214A but j.214b seems to work fine though i maybe a bit late with this haha

[BatousaiJ]

"walks in the in room" hey guys.......oh did something happen . also the dp whiff combo it seems really difficult to use j.214A but j.214b seems to work fine though i maybe a bit late with this haha

Try the 623C > j.214C > j.C > j.C > j.236D > j.214B stuff I posted earlier-

[Tsubaki 5B]

Try the 623C > j.214C > j.C > j.C > j.236D > j.214B stuff I posted earlier-

ah so j.214C ok also after the j.236D>j.214B i believe you can follow up with 6C>236B>214B>22B right?

[BatousaiJ]

You can follow up with 6CC > 236B > 214B > 22B

Read the long post a few pages back, the details should be all there.

[Tsubaki 5B]

You can follow up with 6CC > 236B > 214B > 22B

Read the long post a few pages back, the details should be all there.

ah i see thanks bro

[Rhiya]

Seems like you can get (5a)>5bb>5cc>623C>j.214C>j.c>j.c>j.236D>j.214B>dash 5C>2CC>236xx to work. Does ~3k.

WITH A SIDESWITCH CHOICE.

236B>214B>22B sends them straight, 236C>214B>22B sends them the opposite direction. BAT, YOUR NEW TECH WORKS OFF 5B. LET THE HATERS STUFF IT.

[BatousaiJ]

I've always known that it has.

What you guys should do is to get used to working around the hit box of bigger characters. Try the combo Vs Relius, Bang and Hakumen. In that order a bunch of time and learn the timing to make the combo work.

More importantly, I'm tweaking BnB gatlings, blocked or hit to allow for maximum flexibility and ease of hit confirming.

[Errol]

how about 2c in blockstrings now?it seems like, on paper, that it'd be a really strong option now..

[BatousaiJ]

2C in blockstrings is about the same as it was in CS 2 I think.

The problem with it is that if they're using barrier guard and push you back a little and they're crouch-guarding, the 2C will whiff leaving your vulnerable while if you did 5CC, it would've forced them to block it.

The second hit of 2CC is rather terrible on the ground too for the same reason and while it does gatling to 5C at that point, the push back is strong and there's a good chance you'll whiff the 5C.

Whiffing normals because of push back is something we need to be be more wary of than ever before because how barrier works now and while I do use 5A > (5B) > 5C > (delay)2C/second hit of 5CC to frame trap against people who want to throw/jab me out of 5C > 6C gatling, outside of that I don't see that much of a use.

Edit- Something worth mentioning.

I've been experimenting with different enders to see what will result in the most untechable time possible in the corner and noticed for some reason 22B seems to generate more untechable time.

The test was simple.

I did this combo.

Throw > 6CC > 236C > 214C > 22C/B

When I use the 22C variation to end it, the dummy was able to tech before I landed a 6A force tech trap but when I used 22B, I was able to land 6A force tech everytime.

When you end the come with 22B in this scenario and many others, it seems the dummy has to stop sliding before they can tech but with 22C, they can tech before they even finish sliding.

I don't know why this is but it seems 22B should be our choice ender for any land combo whether that be a IAD or other wise. Note that 22B must be held down a decent length(but timing isn't bad at all) to get this effect.

22C should probably only be used in blockstrings to break primers with or to frame trap most likely.

Edited December 27, 2011 by BatousaiJ

[BeaverDeity]

Sounds pretty awesome. I always use 22B as an ender anyway :3

[M19Kamikaze]

Hey guys, decided to learn up on Tsubaki for CSEX

Does anyone know if her specials (214x, 236x, etc) have any special properties to them? I know full charged 22D is unblockable, but I'm not sure about the rest.

[Errol]

re: 22c. Wonder if that's because you have less time to charge the 22c, for extra untechable time, than you have for 22b? In cs2, I used 22b for enders mainly because I might have already done 22c and there's repeat proration on them.