[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[Airk]

Wait.

The range on 5B is still amazing. For a 5B, the range is fantastic. There isn't another character maybe except for Platinum that possesses a 5B that can measure up to (or beat) that range.

...Ragna?

But seriously, it's not, IMHO, noticeably better than the other "long range" 5Bs in the game - Makoto's, Bang's, Platinum's, etc are all pretty comparable to Tsubaki's, and all of them are markedly faster.

[TheGreatReptar]

So, I started that little Tsubaki guide I mentioned (it rained Saturday, so I didn't walk to the computer store to drop my laptop off, probably going to do it Wednesday now), although I mostly just wrote out Tsubaki's 2 really gross corner oki setups, then derpy mixups. I'm kind of tired right now though, and I ended up writing in a lot of sentence fragments and junk so it doesn't read nicely at all. I'll go through it and proofread it sometime Tuesday/Wednesday and post it.

[Daedron]

Awesome, can't wait to read it :D

[TheGreatReptar]

Got a chance to proofread a little before class.

6A oki “Tsubaki Matrix” Combo into charged 22B>6A in the corner, then link 5C after the 6A (do not chain into 5C). This will result in the 5C hitting meaty (or pretty close to meaty). Opponent is pretty much forced to block, or try to reversal. Since the 5C is meaty, this will beat out all mashing and any attempts to jump. It even beats out Rachel’s 2C (which has guardpoint on frame 3). If your opponent starts trying to late tech to avoid the situation, you can react and use 2B instead of 5C. If they delay their tech too much, or try to roll, the 2B should hit them out of it, and you can confirm into 2CC>IAD from there. A REALLY well timed roll will avoid the 2B however. You can also do a throw after 6A, or just cancel the 6A into 22D for more mixup fun.

This setup took a bit of a hit from CS2 though, since you used to be able to do it with 5B. You can’t do a high/low after forcing the opponent to block anymore. You can still frametrap using 5C>delay>C or 5C>6C (lol), do 5C>6B>dash 5A>whatever to try to reset pressure, 5C©>5D>whatever to also reset pressure.

The 22B>6A link should work with pretty much any combo still, as long as you aren’t using 22B twice. The timings in this are certainly a lot harder in Extend though. Landing a charged 22B has a very narrow window, and 22B has a lot more recovery, making the 6A link feel much more awkward.

Credits to Eshi for explaining all of this to me the other day, naming it, and for blowing up half of Florida with this at CEO back in June.

214B safejump “LolwutisthisSF4?”

To do the safejump, combo into 214B on an airborne opponent (ie, it won’t work on someone who’s being combed while standing/crouching), hold up forward, do j.C then hold down-back. If you opponent DPs, the j.C will whiff, and you’ll land and block the DP. If your opponent mashes, they’ll get counterhit, and they’ll get hit out of their jump startup should they try to jump out of it. If you opponent blocks, you can do whatever you want (I recommend doing 5A into whatever you’d like since it’s airtight). This can be avoided by a really well timed delayed tech>roll. This setup also works midscreen.

This setup loses to 7 frame reversals (Inferno Divider, Jayoku) if you do not launch the opponent high enough with the 214B. Off the combo 5BB>5CC>22C>6C>236B>214B, you’ll be beaten clean by either of these reversals (credits to Ivysaur for blowing me up with Jayoku which made me go and test stuff further). However, if you do 5A>5CC>22C>6CC>236C>5C>2C>236B>214B, the opponent will be high enough that the safejump works. Basically, those moves will win unless you either use 2C© to get them higher in the air, so they emergency tech later. The next fastest reversal in the game, Makoto’s Corona Upper (9 frames), loses on 6C>236B>214B setups. In writing this, I also had the revelation that 214A might actually launch the opponent high enough for the setup to work all the time, although I'm not sure if it recovers quickly enough. I’ll test that later.

This loses to Mu’s DP and Noel’s 632146D, since they both have frame 1 guardpoint which will cause j.C to “hit” holding you in the air from hitstop. Hakumen can also mash 6D to get out of it, and Jin can Yukikaze it. Rachel’s 2C loses to this setup though, as it has 2 frames of startup before it has guardpoint, and the j.C hits meaty. Also, Carl should be able to escape with Vivace, as it has frame 1 head invulnerability. You can bait all the things that beat it clean by just empty jumping. I need to look into how to beat out Vivace after jumping more.

This is an especially nice setup once your opponent starts respecting it. Once you know your opponent is just going to block it, then you can start throwing in mixups like air dashing in and instead of actually doing the j.C, do j.C>delay>j.C/2B shenanigans (which people seem to have a really hard time blocking), empty jumping then throwing, or basically whatever you want.

Of the two oki options, the 214B safejump is probably the better option when you don’t have charge, as the pressure is much more guaranteed. With charge however, 6A oki is probably the way to go, since you have the ability to do 6A>22D. No one wants to eat a 22D in the corner, so just having that stock can likely cause your opponent to try to mash out, delay their tech, or DP. You should also never use the 214B safejump on Mu, Hakumen or Carl, and don’t use it on Noel when she has meter. It’s a free punish/escape for them. Also note that neither setup allows for any charge time, so you'll just be slowly whittling away at your opponent's health with 2k-3k combos if you don't have any charge.

Mixup stuff will come later. That's horribly fragmenty and written all scatter-brain like right now, plus I want some more silly mixups in there. There's something I saw a while ago involving 3CC I want to try out

Edited January 24, 2012 by TheGreatReptar

[Kiba]

Nice. I'm looking forward to the rest of the information you provide us with. Thanks for that.

214B safejump “LolwutisthisSF4?”

If you opponent DPs, the j.C will whiff, and you’ll land and block the DP.

Oh man I had no idea about this. I actually have a reason to use this much more often now haha. Just need to be aware of the characters and who it doesn't work against like you pointed out.

I also had the revelation that 214A might actually launch the opponent high enough for the setup to work all the time, although I'm not sure if it recovers quickly enough. I’ll test that later.

I figured this was the case only because 214A has faster startup. The trap is shown here as well.

...Ragna?

Thought the same thing, but then for some reason I doubted it.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Kiba

[TheGreatReptar]

Yea, I'm thinking 214A won't work. The A versions o Tsubaki's ground specials tend to have longer recovery, so it will probably just get blown up by slower reversals.

[Airk]

Yea, I'm thinking 214A won't work. The A versions o Tsubaki's ground specials tend to have longer recovery, so it will probably just get blown up by slower reversals.

>confused<

In the CS2 frame data, at least, 214A has exactly as much recovery as 214B.

[TheGreatReptar]

Yea, I looked that up in class. If it's still the same, and if it really does float higher (although I suspect that might just be the move being faster that's making me think that for some reason) then it might beat out 7 frame moves. I'll test it in a few hours when I'm done with classes.

[pktazn]

Thanks for the write-up dude :D You're a better student than me since I'm typing this from class lolol.

Ah-ha, so that's what Eshi was doing at CEO last year. I do remember that he would use 6A a lot after a combo but didn't know it was from 22B or the details. I read on here that you can use 6A to force tech so I thought it was probably that but didn't know you go to 5C from there and it's benefits.

[TheGreatReptar]

It was nicer when 5B was fast enough to hit meaty after the 6A. You get more mixup options off 5B, but not 5C =\

I didn't know what he was doing either. I knew if your opponent emergency teched after you do 6A, and if you canceled the 6A into 22D, then the 22D would hit like 6 frames after they finished teching, so I thought Eshi was just mixing between 22D and 2B the whole time xD

[Eshi]

Thanks for the write-up dude :D You're a better student than me since I'm typing this from class lolol.

Ah-ha, so that's what Eshi was doing at CEO last year. I do remember that he would use 6A a lot after a combo but didn't know it was from 22B or the details. I read on here that you can use 6A to force tech so I thought it was probably that but didn't know you go to 5C from there and it's benefits.

the 6A matrix is ridiculously good against players that don't fully understand it. At worst you put them in a situation that they're forced to block (or DP but whatever, yomi that shit) and you get offensive corner pressure. At best they get trapped in the matrix and you keep OTG 6A'ing over and over again until they die. I've won SO many matches with this tactic alone.

[BatousaiJ]

6A matrix is the 6A forced emergency tech thing that became popular for 22D unblockable setup?

I like using both things listed as an option to mix opponents up but I end up just going for regular knockdowns to get some charge in the corner most of the time and just trying to yomi what they're going to do in the corner.

I just make it a point every time to make sure they can't forward roll out of pressure and go from there.

[Eshi]

6A matrix is the 6A forced emergency tech thing that became popular for 22D unblockable setup?

I like using both things listed as an option to mix opponents up but I end up just going for regular knockdowns to get some charge in the corner most of the time and just trying to yomi what they're going to do in the corner.

I just make it a point every time to make sure they can't forward roll out of pressure and go from there.

This is also a good option and, against better opponents that have caught on to it, probably better since you can get some charge out of it. I personally do it because it's a controlled situation where I know exactly what the opponent's options are and exactly how to counter each on of them by reducing it down to its frames. I love things like that.

[shad0whiei]

Insanely useful info. Time to hit the danger room~ thanks for all the time you put into this stuff. Very helpful

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[pktazn]

For anyone interested in totally random info that has nothing to do with what was being discussed before~

There was a BB Revolution 3on3 qualifier at Yawata Ace three days ago and here are the Tsubakis that participated (unfortunately none got through this one but some were close) so we'll most likely see them trying to get into BB Revolution again:

Kuno (Team didn't make it past the first round)

Shouta (Team made it past the first round, eliminated in second round)

Ten (Team made it past first round then eliminated by Konan's team)

Konan (Team made it to quarter-finals)

Kuresu (Team made it past first round, eliminated in second round)

Edited January 25, 2012 by pktazn

[BatousaiJ]

Hum, any footage from those qualifiers?

[Iza]

really interested to see Ten and Konan using Tsubaki

[pktazn]

Hum, any footage from those qualifiers?

Unfortunately no. The only videos they have are the ones I'm putting up now and they're the semis and finals *terrible luck*

[BatousaiJ]

Poopies.

[TheGreatReptar]

So, I'm starting to goof around with 3CC crossunders in training mode. I can see why everyone was bursting this setup when I saw it in a Japanese vidya now

[shad0whiei]

I wanna see some Konan. Speaking of older hype Tsubaki players. What ever happened to Inoue (sp?)?

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[BatousaiJ]

I've been screwing around with some options after 22x knockaway and have been fairly impressed with what you can do with 3CC which works very well against all the options your opponent has at that point as long you meter to back you up.

I'll make a quick video like the 1 Charge Mugen one to explain in detail.

I'm actually liking the idea of making smaller videos touching on specific topics instead of a long, drawn out tutorial video I was going to make in the future so I think I'll just make them in pieces like this.

[C0R]

Inoue Aka Kazunoko has been playing... I forget who, I want to say Arakune though.

Is there a reason to use 5bb? I really can't seem to do any work with that normal.

Also, for some reason I'm not getting air install to come out after an uppercut, is that series not super cancelable? Do I have to do like a jcc or something?

[Kiba]

Inoue Aka Kazunoko has been playing... I forget who, I want to say Arakune though.

Is there a reason to use 5bb? I really can't seem to do any work with that normal.

5BB can frame trap players which is good because its really good to use as a combo starter. However, depending on the player, the chances of getting CHs with that normal is actually really low. 5BB is also better to use if you wish to go into 6A. The gap from 5BB - 6A is smaller than that of 2B. Apart from those, 5BB has no real significant use to be used repetitively. It's not safe on block and is not even jump cancellable on block.

It's a staple in combos because it's a nice and easy hit confirm, but it really prorates combos. In most circumstances it will prevent you from using 6CC. It's better to use 5B - 5C or start combos with 5A/5C.

Also, for some reason I'm not getting air install to come out after an uppercut, is that series not super cancelable? Do I have to do like a jcc or something?

You mean after a 623X?

I will not be too specific on the answer because Bat can clarify better than I can. AFAIK, you super cancel into Air Mugen from air normals only. So yup, you would have to do it after a j.C©.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kiba

[shad0whiei]

I've been screwing around with some options after 22x knockaway and have been fairly impressed with what you can do with 3CC which works very well against all the options your opponent has at that point as long you meter to back you up.

I'll make a quick video like the 1 Charge Mugen one to explain in detail.

I'm actually liking the idea of making smaller videos touching on specific topics instead of a long, drawn out tutorial video I was going to make in the future so I think I'll just make them in pieces like this.

I'm quite fond of these also. Its good for quick reference if looking for something specific to learn/touch or when trying to find something new, instead of clicking through a long video trying to find the right spot. At most make a playlist with all the short videos as a tutorial. It'd be like a table of contents in a book. Or chapter select.

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