Errol Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 something seems wrong with calling lambda 5c spam after a knockdown 'mashing'...
BatousaiJ Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Funny enough, 5A > 5B is now a frame trap. So is 5BB. Yup.
Kiba Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Delay gatlings such as 5BB and 5CC. Funny enough, 5A > 5B is now a frame trap So is 5BB. No need to delay 5BB then haha. Good news.
Airk Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 No need to delay 5BB then haha. Good news. Wait, so they F-ing made 5BB slower again? SERIOUSLY? That's messed up. That means we're back to CS1 status with zero viable blockstrings, so I seriously hope you are incorrect about that.
BatousaiJ Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Wait, so they F-ing made 5BB slower again? SERIOUSLY? That's messed up. That means we're back to CS1 status with zero viable blockstrings, so I seriously hope you are incorrect about that. What? I wasn't aware 5BB was slower in CS 2 than it was in CS 1. Anyhow, 5A > 5CC is air tight. So is 5B > 5CC. There are other stuff too.
BatousaiJ Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Please indulge us. No, you. I'll post some stuff later. Doing stuff now.
Airk Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 If 5B > 5BB is a frame trap, that means 5BB is slower. The added recovery on 5B has no impact on the 5B > 5BB gatling, because the recovery is cancelled. Unless they reduced the attack level on 5B and thereby reduced the amount of blockstun it creates. And if 5B > 5BB is a non-viable gatling (i.e. a "natural frame trap" aka "A place where someone can just mash a reversal and hit you every time"), we basically have no mixup.
pktazn Posted January 19, 2012 Author Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Just my personal feeling from how I played but I don't think it's a good idea to continuously go to 5BB anyway since 5B can go into 2B, 5C, and 2C as well as being jump cancellable, charge cancellable and special cancellable (unless any of that changed). And if it's on CH you get more options than if you had gone to 5BB. Half the time 5BB will most likely whiff moreso than it should so I tried to stop automatically going into it. She still has mix-up even if it's not exactly the best mix-up out there because it isn't lol. EDIT: Just noticed I mentioned CH but it isn't applicable since we're talking about blockstrings (I think). My bad. Edited January 19, 2012 by pktazn
BatousaiJ Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 If 5B > 5BB is a frame trap, that means 5BB is slower. The added recovery on 5B has no impact on the 5B > 5BB gatling, because the recovery is cancelled. Unless they reduced the attack level on 5B and thereby reduced the amount of blockstun it creates. And if 5B > 5BB is a non-viable gatling (i.e. a "natural frame trap" aka "A place where someone can just mash a reversal and hit you every time"), we basically have no mixup.
Rhiya Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 If 5B > 5BB is a frame trap, that means 5BB is slower. The added recovery on 5B has no impact on the 5B > 5BB gatling, because the recovery is cancelled. Unless they reduced the attack level on 5B and thereby reduced the amount of blockstun it creates. And if 5B > 5BB is a non-viable gatling (i.e. a "natural frame trap" aka "A place where someone can just mash a reversal and hit you every time"), we basically have no mixup. Airk, you're being stupid if you think having a gap means a gatling isn't viable. Mashing reversal requires you to NOT BLOCK, and NOT BLOCKING gets you fucking hit. You have to really think your opponent is going for that loose gatling if you want to DP out. Also, Ragna 2C>everything laughs at you
Kiba Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 And if 5B > 5BB is a non-viable gatling (i.e. a "natural frame trap" aka "A place where someone can just mash a reversal and hit you every time"), we basically have no mixup. Just my personal feeling from how I played but I don't think it's a good idea to continuously go to 5BB anyway since 5B can go into 2B, 5C, and 2C as well as being jump cancellable, charge cancellable and special cancellable (unless any of that changed) And even 6A. There's our mixup.
Airk Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 And even 6A. There's our mixup. My hyperbole aside, do we have any reason to believe that 5BB is slower? Because that's the only way 5B>5BB becomes a frame trap.
pktazn Posted January 19, 2012 Author Posted January 19, 2012 We should learn soon though it may still take awhile. I believe the mook for Extend is on sale or at least available for pre-order so it's just a matter of when the book arrives and how long it takes to be translated. I can almost guarantee the first character's frame data to be translated is Relius though since he's a new character.
Velvien Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 My hyperbole aside, do we have any reason to believe that 5BB is slower? Because that's the only way 5B>5BB becomes a frame trap. I've been able to backstep on normal block during the gap between 5B and 5BB. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was impossible in CS2. So yeah, as far as I can tell, it's much slower.
C0R Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 If any Tsubaki player with COMPREHENSIVE SKILL AT READING JAPANESE KANJI would like an opportunity to translate the mook when it comes in they should drop me a PM.
Kiba Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the heads up. That sort of thing is not my forte though I've been able to backstep on normal block during the gap between 5B and 5BB. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was impossible in CS2. So yeah, as far as I can tell, it's much slower. Are you sure the 5BB was not out of range? Like this Edited January 19, 2012 by Kiba
Velvien Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Just tested it some more at point-blank range. Still was able to backstep.
C0R Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Backdash is a frame 1 thing, it wins against just about every gap in the game. You're going to want to see if it beats jump startup, which is very relevant to escaping pressure.
Kiba Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Just tested it some more at point-blank range. Still was able to backstep. Backdash is a frame 1 thing, it wins against just about every gap in the game. You're going to want to see if it beats jump startup, which is very relevant to escaping pressure. I'm going to have to bear these things in mind. Thanks for the clarification guys. So it frame traps, yet players are able to backdash out of 5BB. Hmm....
Airk Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) The problem here, as I see it is that our blockstrings are back to almost CS1 status. Our safe blockstrings appear to consist of: 5B> 5C > 5CC 5B > 2B > Nothing 5A > 5A > 5A / 2A > 2A > 2A And that it's. Am I missing something here? Edit: Whoops, I probably am. 2B > 5C is probably safe now thanks to the speed of 5C. That improves things a bit. Still kinda poor if you ask me, but better. Edited January 20, 2012 by Airk
BatousaiJ Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 It's easy to find out what's a tight block string because the CPU has an option of blocking the first hit stun and getting hit only if there's a gap in there somewhere afterwards. 5A x 3/2A x 3 5B > 2B(B) > 5C© 5B > 5C© > 2C 2B > 5B > 5C 2B > 5C > 2C 2A > 5C© > 2C 5A > 5C© > 2C 5C > 2C These are what I can think of atm. You can obviously go into 5C© > 2C gatling whether you use 3 or 1 5A/2A as well. The 6A, 6B, 6C gatling paths remain the same as CS 2 although hitconfirming off CH and etc for some paths have changed. Tsu actually has quite the flexibility when it comes to her gatlings and there beings the smallest holes in them in cases like 5A > 5B/ 5BB will often times work in your favor rather than against it. For example, a common throw setup is a dash 5A > throw but if you do this once or twice your opponent will see this coming and try to break throw right off the bat the moment you get in there with a 5A. At that point, you can just 5A > 5B and it'll counter hit them in the face or you can even do 5A > slight delay 5A > 5C. If you see your opponent using DP to mash out of your pressure either just hold block after 5A or if they're doing it in between 5BB, just 5B > Charge cancel > block and watch them whiff that DP. Simply put, know which ones are tight, which are not and how to use them to your advantage along with the proper punish for common scenarios. Generally speaking, I don't even use long block strings against high level opponents as that's just giving them instant block fodder and giving them more chances to escape with every hit I throw out there that's blocked, tight or otherwise. I have my problems with high level opponents but opening them up isn't one of them and if you use the tools at your arsenal with consideration and creativity, you will see this for yourself as well.
Kiba Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Do you mind if I add that information to the wiki? =D
pktazn Posted January 20, 2012 Author Posted January 20, 2012 You're so nice that you asked. I just read it and was like "this sounds like it'd be good in the wiki" and added it lol. #terribleperson
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