redsilversnake Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I know she requires more work. That's the problem. I've improved a lot since CT and CS1 (where everything I learned that wasn't combo-oriented went right out the window when an actual match started), but I definitely peaked at CS2, since I'm simply fundamentally incapable of going past the level of play I've reached. I'd love to keep playing Tsubaki, since her playstyle is my favorite in the game and I really like her mane design, but I simply cannot play her well with all these arbitrary nerfs. I mean, if they'd been balanced out with some more buffs (bring back JC-able 3C and give her normals some actual priority, plz), it wouldn't be so bad. But, as pk has said before, they seem to just not know what to do with her. @Errol: Fuck Ragna. And you'd think after CS1, they'd realize that, "nerf the stupid good shit, buff the stupid bad shit, randomly change everything else" isn't an entirely reliable method. I mean, yeah, you do wanna change things up, but a good portion of Extend's rebalancing just lends credence to my theory that it was just put out to satiate players who won't get an actual new game since resources are going to the P4 fighter and/or cash in on the Vita, and thus got much less thought and effort than CS2's. Edited February 20, 2012 by redsilversnake
Kiba Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Kiba, you really think mugen is too good? I forgot that BJ's 11k damage combo was with two gold bursts. 5 charge mugen into 6 or 7k damage doesn't even seem too good to me. Don't bloodkain combos hit that without any of the downsides...or some combos from other characters that use 2 DD/rapids? Using 5 stocks and the 3D combo guarantees 6K + regardless of the starter because the 3D combo grants you with 110& bonus proration. Not only that, but you're also earning your heat back whilst dealing damage. It's possible to get your 50% heat (or near 50%) with 4-5 stocks. With 4 or 5 stocks, that should be your only combo. This is where mugen is really effective. The only downside to this is that depending on the matchup, it's not exactly that practical to have 5 stocks mid - game. It becomes more specific when you're using one stock because you want to make the most out of it with the right starters. Like, for example, I wouldn't use it from a 6A starter unless I had 4-5 stocks where could I spam the 3Ds. For Tsubaki, 6 - 8k mugen combos are hella good. W/o heat, she can't break more than 5k, and even with 3CC use, she can't break more than 5.5K.
Airk Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) For Tsubaki, 6 - 8k mugen combos are hella good. W/o heat, she can't break more than 5k, and even with 3CC use, she can't break more than 5.5K. Which would be fine if: A) Certain Other Characters can do 7k for 50% heat with none of this "I need to somehow get 5 stocks and then not use them until I can land a good hit for Mugen" B) It didn't require 5 stocks. x.x I thought of a way for Mugen to be good. Make it require one stock, but make it always give 5 stocks worth of time (Which is still shorter than stupid Blood Kain). If you end with a super you still get the super for the number of stocks you had when it started, but you get the full duration, and it still leaves you with zero stocks at the end, but you can at least do a real combo with it without having to get and potentially waste 5 charges. It's still fundamentally idiotic to base so much of our damage off of this one "hey, burst me, you know you want to" move, but at least the above change would make it so it's about as useful as Blood Kain. Also, doesn't bonus proration only apply once? So spamming the "3D" loop is really just getting you the repeat proration on 623D? Anyone try using a 623C for your second DP (still going into 236D > 214D afterward)? And I don't care what anyone says about CS2 236C, there was NOTHING broken about that move. It gave Tsubaki a strength that no one else on the cast had, and it was by no means abuseable against anyone who knew what they were doing. The hilariously excessive nerf to it, to me, just shows that ASW wasn't paying a damn bit of attention to how things actually worked. Seriously. The more I look at her frame data, the more convinced I am that they literally didn't finish tuning her - they didn't adjust the properties of ANY of her followup moves except 3CC, and they basically DROPPED _ALL_ custom guardstun values from her moves except for the 22X series, where they didn't change the pre-existing values. Which is why all her stuff is suddenly super negative. And now that I look at it, something is weird with 22X... <goes to dig deeper> Edited February 20, 2012 by Airk
BatousaiJ Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 You guys are putting too much emphasis on the high charge count Mugens. You can do 6.2k with one charge Mugen off a 6CC starter, you can do 5k off a 5A starter(our fastest normal) with a 2 charge mugen. Mugen is really good in this game, there's no doubt about it so I suggest you start working them into your hitconfirm rotation if you're able and know how to bait bursts using 214D as well.
pktazn Posted February 20, 2012 Author Posted February 20, 2012 Many thanks Kiba for the FC 6A combos. On Mugen: It's hella good (which makes it more fun) even with only one-two charges. What they did to Mugen is a good direction for the move itself, despite what they did to her overall imo. Before anyone goes: "But that doesn't change the fact that she's still worse blah blah blah" I know. Believe me, good god do I know but I'm hoping they will keep what they did to Mugen for the next BB along with our top tier Tsubaki who does +100000 on block on everything along with auto-charge and auto-heatgain cuz that's what everyone wants right?
BatousaiJ Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 "But that doesn't change the fact that she's still worse blah blah blah" I know. Believe me, good god do I know but I'm hoping they will keep what they did to Mugen for the next BB along with our top tier Tsubaki who does +100000 on block on everything along with auto-charge and auto-heatgain cuz that's what everyone wants right?
Airk Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Many thanks Kiba for the FC 6A combos. On Mugen: It's hella good (which makes it more fun) even with only one-two charges. What they did to Mugen is a good direction for the move itself, despite what they did to her overall imo. I agree that having it do more than letting you spam D moves (that already have repeat proration on them anyway) is a step in the right direction towards making "mugen" useful; It's just a shame that it had to come at the cost of nerfing her D moves so that they can go "LOL, now they're better while in Mugen!" I know. Believe me, good god do I know but I'm hoping they will keep what they did to Mugen for the next BB along with our top tier Tsubaki who does +100000 on block on everything along with auto-charge and auto-heatgain cuz that's what everyone wants right? I just want my solid CS2 Tsubaki back, thank you.
Kiba Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) No probz PK. I didn't mean to place a lot of emphasis on 5 stock mugen combos Bat. In a nutshell, the damage increase that mugen provides us with allows us to deal more damage than usual which makes it viable in many situations. Of a corner throw, you deal 2.7K whereas if you used Mugen with one stock, that's 3.9K. I would surely consider that 1.2k difference. It's better much better than the other DD too. The more stock you use the more heat you're rewarded with too. This assists the fact that normally Tsubaki doesn't gain heat very fast. I still believe mugen is really good, and shuld be incorporated in any EX Tsubaki gameplay. Also, doesn't bonus proration only apply once? So spamming the "3D" loop is really just getting you the repeat proration on 623D? It does only apply once, though the repeat proration increases to 84% in mugen. Edited February 20, 2012 by Kiba
pktazn Posted February 20, 2012 Author Posted February 20, 2012 I just want my solid CS2 Tsubaki back, thank you. And there's nothing wrong with that as I'm sure we all would like Tsu-baby to be as solid as possible. I mean no offense in what I'm about to say but if I have to be honest most the complaints somehow end up boiling down to "I don't want to play Extend Tsu because it's harder and my game isn't good enough so I'm just going to give up" which for me personally, is really disheartening to read. Does this mean I think that the complaints aren't justified? No, of course not. Who doesn't want their character to be awesome?
redsilversnake Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Tsu-baby pktazn/Tsubaki = OTP? Anyways, no one should be offended by your comment. Some might not wanna own up to it, but you're right. Hopefully, she gets better in the next game, but for now...
BatousaiJ Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Like I said, I'm done trying to change the minds of people who's given up before they've even tried. There's no point to it. For those that do stick to it though, there are rewards to fighting uphill battles constantly. One, you feel pretty awesome when you beat up someone in a tough match up. It tells you that you knew the match up and outplayed that player in many levels even though they have some degree of advantage over you. Second, you end up having to become a better player to succeed. Every hitconfrim you drop feels like a death sentence, poor mix ups and easily punishable approaches go out the window and you're forced to improve, dig deep and pull out some wins. You keep the improved skill through transitions of the game versions and ultimately, you'll be able to compete with people you thought you had no chance against when you were starting out. It's a good thing.
shad0whiei Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Like I said, I'm done trying to change the minds of people who's given up before they've even tried. There's no point to it. For those that do stick to it though, there are rewards to fighting uphill battles constantly. One, you feel pretty awesome when you beat up someone in a tough match up. It tells you that you knew the match up and outplayed that player in many levels even though they have some degree of advantage over you. Second, you end up having to become a better player to succeed. Every hitconfrim you drop feels like a death sentence, poor mix ups and easily punishable approaches go out the window and you're forced to improve, dig deep and pull out some wins. You keep the improved skill through transitions of the game versions and ultimately, you'll be able to compete with people you thought you had no chance against when you were starting out. It's a good thing. ^ this. Eventually ill stop getting bodied by bat so hard >> lol Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Airk Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I haven't decided what I'm going to do about CS:EX Tsubaki, because, frankly, I'm in no hurry to buy the game at all because I don't like to encourage companies to think it's okay to sell us a $40 new character. I won't deny that the state of Tsubaki in EX is a negative motivator as well, but my stance was pretty well locked in even before that. I may give the game a pass wholesale and just wait for Persona 4. :P It's not like they're not going to change everything again in 8 months.
Kiba Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 So uh, did anyone else notice that Gomikuzu moved from Tsubaki to Ragna now? Sad times.
Errol Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Usual stuff with game revisions I guess. It's better than just stopping playing completely. Like.. konan plays but he doesn't seem to pop up nearly as much..
redsilversnake Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 I don't like to encourage companies to think it's okay to sell us a $40 new character. ...Yeah, 'cause Relius is totally the only new thing in Extend. No rebalance, no new modes, no new story stuff, didn't change online in even the smallest way. I mean, really, this is as bad as AE. #obvioussarcasm
Kiba Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Usual stuff with game revisions I guess. It's better than just stopping playing completely. Like.. konan plays but he doesn't seem to pop up nearly as much.. Yea that's true at least. Quite a shame though. He was my favourite. At least we have Kuresu still carrying the torch though.
pktazn Posted February 21, 2012 Author Posted February 21, 2012 Yea when Jourdal told me Gomikuzu switched I was since he was the only Tsubaki that really showed up at Gamechariot. Oh well, I'm not too surprised by the change. Konan is a rare Pokemon now though if I have to be honest he really only started showing up in videos around and after SBO time for CS2. But overall he's still showed up less compared to CS2. He was usually recorded at Tachikawa (under various names lol) but is now dodging the camera. :T Kazu @ Ginga was another one I watched who frequented acho but has completely avoided being recorded, if he still plays, since Extend hit.
Errol Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Sad stuff, Kuresu is now the flagbearer and before he was that guy who wasn't bad but Konan was king. Gomikuzu was always the jp tsu I felt I could relate to though. ha...
Airk Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Well, maybe they'll take the hint for next game.
Jourdal Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 I thought all tsu players were warriors, after enduring CS1 i figured EX would still be fine , Airk i am disappointed.
pktazn Posted February 21, 2012 Author Posted February 21, 2012 CS1 didn't exist. Clearly Extend is our darkest hour.
BatousaiJ Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Darkest hour? More like super happy fun party time.
Errol Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 CS1 didn't exist. Clearly Extend is our darkest hour. CS1 was not bad, stop complaining. . . . (jump cancelable 3c, 22d auto wall bounce, dp whiff combos, etc etc!)
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