Kiba Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 The Tsubaki wiki is going to blow up soon. Nice to see we can still keep opponents on their toes after a knockdown. Good stuff.
Fallacy Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 Nice 3C shenanigans, definitely gonna try that.
BatousaiJ Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 The next little tutorial video will most likely cover the safe jump option unless I discover something more worthwhile of note.
TheGreatReptar Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Lol, speaking of the safejump, I thought a bunch of supers were able to beat it about 20 minutes ago. Remember to record Tsubaki holding barrier for a really long time to outlast any super flashes Also, just a nice thing to note, 5B/5C(ch)>6CC>236C>214A>dash>5C>2C>236B>214B>22B and the same combo with 6A(FC)>5CC>6CC can have the dash omitted on almost the entire cast. The 2C only whiffs on Makoto, Rachel, and Hakumen it seems. Edited January 31, 2012 by TheGreatReptar
Airk Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 So this is what Xie has to say about Tsubaki in his Tier Thread: Tsubaki Reward Assessment: B Rank - Tsubaki's damage situation is very different from most characters, as her midscreen damage is fairly good from non-situational confirms, but her situational confirms and corner combos tend to lead to relatively low damage compared to other characters without any resources like Install or Heat. However, with ample resources, her damage and heat gain has the potential to surpass most characters in a similar situation, making her sort of strange in terms of game flow. Neutral Viability: B Rank - Without Install meter, Tsubaki is mostly a close-mid range character who relies primarily on her normals and movement to close the gap and win spacing battles on the ground. Her anti-air and air-to-air are both somewhat competent, but as a whole, she cannot force most midrange style opponents to approach from the air instead of staying on the ground, so it is not as useful versus many. Her abilities greatly increase by expending Install Meter, as 236D, j236D, and 214D are all very powerful tools in neutral, but because they cost Install Meter, which cannot be easily obtained in neutral, it is difficult to say that her neutral game is strong if they are reliant on these. Offensive Viability: B Rank - Tsubaki relies mostly on variance for her blockstring and mixup options, many of which are not very fast on their own, but are relatively safe if needed to be. She has access to an unblockable attack and a relatively safe overhead, but largely relies on charge canceling and normal blockstrings to stop opponents from moving and keeping her blockstrings variable. Defensive Viability: B+ Rank - Tsubaki's possess a DP that is not invincible on the first active frame, cause it to trade versus many attacks. It can also be pushed and counts as a projectile, which add to its potential countermeasures, but is very fast and has fair reach for a DP, so it is still usable on wakeup or versus certain blockstrings. With install meter, Tsubaki gains a real DP and access to follow ups that can potentially make the DP safe. Even though it is not always available, the existence of a potential D dp makes the A dp passively more useful, giving Tsubaki potential options on defense. Versatility: B Rank Complexity: B Rank Current Assessment: B Rank - Tsubaki has many solid tools, but is largely dependent on her resource availability and management. I'm curious to see if people agree with this. I think the reward assessment isn't bad, but the neutral viability continues to concern me - considering how bad ALL of our D moves are now in terms of recovery. 214D is a free punish for anyone unless you can end outside of jab range, 236D basically resets the game to neutral on block because you have to either block or backdash - it's too negative to even safely jump after being blocked. Similarly, 22D is only "safe" if you're far enough away that people can't jab you after blocking it. Thoughts?
Errol Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Why would he say Tsubaki's DP is fast? it's strictly average, everything lands at 9-11 frames it seems, except ragna's is 7 and jin's c is 20. And then supers are faster, around 3 or 4 frames more often. altho, airk, gotta say that the focus on other DPs having at least two invuln frames is kinda weird. Kinda doesn't matter, either have invuln when active frames start or you don't. w/e On the topic of our DP, well, it has 5 active frames. that's a pretty decent amount of active frames, but I'm just wondering, where is the hitbox on those frames? Is the hitbox actually like a projectile too? it doesn't hit at the highest part of the hitbox until the 5th frame? And the D DP isn't a projectile at all, so is that different.. I'd guess so? Just wondering if the 'only 1 frame between invuln ending and hitbox starting' thing isn't quite accurate. like if it's notably worse than that if they're in the air. Edited February 7, 2012 by Errol
BatousaiJ Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Xie makes some statements that I don't fully agree with but most of the stuff he says is not too far from the truth. Current Assessment: B Rank - Tsubaki has many solid tools, but is largely dependent on her resource availability and management. Minus the superficial rank grade, that's about how I would describe Tsu in her Extend iteration. I could go into detail given my rather extensive experience with extend thus far compared to other people but in all honesty, I'm kind of done trying to convince people of things they're so set on believing regardless of the facts.
Errol Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) TBH it seems like nitpicking to me. She's still ranked overall at the bottom. Even to the degree that tier lists matter (not much), it seems even less worthwhile to argue over the small points so much. It's funny how having the worst character seems like even more of a throne than having the best character. funny. another thought, with ragna's 5b buff, 5b does 660 compared to our a dp doing 600. No reason at all to respect the DP on wakeup... Edited February 7, 2012 by Errol
Rhiya Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Xie makes some statements that I don't fully agree with but most of the stuff he says is not too far from the truth. Current Assessment: B Rank - Tsubaki has many solid tools, but is largely dependent on her resource availability and management. Minus the superficial rank grade, that's about how I would describe Tsu in her Extend iteration. I could go into detail given my rather extensive experience with extend thus far compared to other people but in all honesty, I'm kind of done trying to convince people of things they're so set on believing regardless of the facts. Not gonna lie, Bat. You do well with Tsubaki because you're good, not because the character is
pktazn Posted February 7, 2012 Author Posted February 7, 2012 From what I've played with her I pretty much agree with Xie's final line at least. She really doesn't seem as dead in the water like a lot of people seem to be making her out to be.
Airk Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Why would he say Tsubaki's DP is fast? it's strictly average, everything lands at 9-11 frames it seems, except ragna's is 7 and jin's c is 20. And then supers are faster, around 3 or 4 frames more often. Yeah; Calling it "fast" is pretty inexplicable to me. I actually totally missed that. It really does seem thoroughly middle of the pack - the only faster DPs I could find were Ragna, but the only slower ones I could find were Jin. Pretty much everyone else comes in at the 9-11 frame mark as you say. altho, airk, gotta say that the focus on other DPs having at least two invuln frames is kinda weird. Kinda doesn't matter, either have invuln when active frames start or you don't. It's a measure of how likely it is to trade, that's all. You don't always HIT with your first active frame, so if that's the only invulnerable one, then you're going to trade more than someone who's DP is invulnerable until halfway through it's active frames. On the topic of our DP, well, it has 5 active frames. that's a pretty decent amount of active frames, but I'm just wondering, where is the hitbox on those frames? Is the hitbox actually like a projectile too? it doesn't hit at the highest part of the hitbox until the 5th frame? Er, not sure where you're getting 5 frames from? Looking at the data I see 7/7/-/9 for A/B/C/D - and I have no clue what the "-" means on the C version. But either way, as best as I can tell from the screenshots and from watching the game, no part of Tsubaki is ever a hitbox during it (unless she's overlapping with the "projectile"). So yeah, it definitely won't hit at the top of it's trajectory until the later frames. Generally, active frames are spread more or less evenly throughout the duration of the animation. This is part of what makes the B DP kinda interesting, in that it's actually almost got better chances of winning or at least trading, under a lot of cirumstances than the A or D DP. Partly because it's invulnerable from the 2nd active frame ON, and partly because unlike the A version, the projectile is guaranteed unless you get hit really early. So it's not a good "take advantage of that really small gap" DP - that's what A and D are for - but it's a good tool for use countering stuff that leaves a larger window. And the D DP isn't a projectile at all, so is that different.. I'd guess so? Just wondering if the 'only 1 frame between invuln ending and hitbox starting' thing isn't quite accurate. like if it's notably worse than that if they're in the air. Well, yes, it is tons worse if they're airborne - if they're airborne, you're pretty much guaranteed to not be invulnerable by the time you reach them UNLESS you are using the B DP, which is invulnerable from just after leaving the ground, pretty much until Tsubaki starts to descend again. The A and D DPs are pretty much useless at that distance, because their invulnerability frames wear off just as you start to leave the ground. Also...WTF? They BUFFED Ragna's 5B? It wasn't godlike enough before? Anyway, I'm sorry if you're tired of trying to "convince" me here - clearly good people can get wins with this character, but I find the odds of me being one of those people to be depressingly low. All the strengths that I lean on in CS2 are pretty much toast, and I KNOW I have a terrible neutral/footsies game, so going from a character that can at least sortof lazy her way out at midlevels of play to a character who really DEMANDS good footsies if you intend to win against pretty much anyone is not going to end well for me. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to STOP playing her, or throw their hands up and say "Okay, you win, she sucks" but I'm very concerned about the problems that are going to screw me over if/when I get this game.
shad0whiei Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I haven't had a lot of higher level play in extend yet. Just against a really good hazama I know. But overall I don't really think I play that much differently than in cs2 and still do pretty OK. I'm no where near gdlk or anything but I wouldn't be worries overall. If you played her before than you can play her now at the same lvl of play I think. Just a few different things to learn. Give it a shot when you can. I think you'll be fine ^^ might notice somethings you may or may not try to do in cs2 work quite well here. Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Her_Omen Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 I've always played Tsubaki in a rushdown/pressure way. Covering space with moves like 3C, and 236A/B/C. Granted I've learned to stop that and start dashes, or use a double jump with a charge followed by 214 (or was that 236 for that falcon-dive?) in the air. But now it looks like I'm going to have to learn to play her in a way that is finding time to get a single-charge on the mugen bar to get in mugen combos, which I still suck at. :3 Toss in the fact I've had zero practice as of recent. Anyone will stomp my backside once I get Extend. :x
Shruikon Posted February 12, 2012 Posted February 12, 2012 Finally got to play Extend Tsubaki last night. Getting used to the new 5B and 5C and stuff, just need to start getting used to using the new combos and mugen combos and stuff
TheGreatReptar Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 Just a couple of things that I'm in the process of updating on the wiki concerning Tsubaki's corner matrix and safejump setups. Using 214A (something I mentioned before but never followed up on) actually does beat out Jayako and Inferno Divider, so the whole thing about needing the get the opponent to a certain height will be removed and all mentions of 214B will disappear. You actually can use 5B rather than 5C for the matrix setup. It doesn't hit meaty, but if all my calculations are correct, it should hit on the second frame after your opponent gets up assuming your opponent techs as soon as possible, and you do the 5B as soon as possible. Hitting on the second frame means it beats Cat-chair. My assumptions in calculations are: 6A hits on the first active frame, opponent hits the button to neutral tech on 6A's second active frame, neutral tech begins on 6A's first recovery frame. 6A has 24 recovery frames, plus the 10 frames for 5B, so on the 34th frame 5B hits. Neutral tech takes 32 frames, plus 3 frames before 2C has guard point, so it'll have guard point on frame 35. However, I'm not sure if my thought process on when the tech actually begins is correct. Regardless, 5B will beat out jab attempts and jump out attempts. If 5B does actually hit on frame 35, then there's also the problem that Tager can 360A it. I need to test on a non-laggy tv and have another person being Rachel with a turbo controller or something.
pktazn Posted February 15, 2012 Author Posted February 15, 2012 I'm supa sad none of you told me I could cancel into 236236C (corner) and 236236D (midscreen/corner) from a throw and have it connect :T
TheGreatReptar Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I didn't know/never thought of doing that =X
pktazn Posted February 15, 2012 Author Posted February 15, 2012 I didn't know/never thought of doing that =X I used to do it all the time in CT and thought "since I can cancel throws into specials again... can I do it into the 236236x supers?" considering you can cancel into mugen from a throw lol. It was just a random experiment that ended up working since I never saw anyone mention it before for Extend at least.
Eshi Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 the new 5C is pure SEX. My new hobby is doing [5A > 5C > 5D> dash closer] x N against online players, lol
Kiba Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I'm supa sad none of you told me I could cancel into 236236C (corner) and 236236D (midscreen/corner) from a throw and have it connect :T Dx Sorry there. Saw the self improvement thread. I'll try and cook up a story for the Ragna MU later.
Errol Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 the new 5C is pure SEX. My new hobby is doing [5A > 5C > 5D> dash closer] x N against online players, lol I think this would be autoloss against characters with better pokes, charge cancel is the perfect visual cue for ragna to 5b, etc?
Eshi Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I think this would be autoloss against characters with better pokes, charge cancel is the perfect visual cue for ragna to 5b, etc?The string is pretty darn tight, so 5B gets counterhit when timed well. The vast majority of online players have no idea what's going on so you can just do it forever :D
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