[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[Errol]

If you want help with jBB loops, ask Kiba. Hit confirms and does full loop into proper ender across an ocean of lag, every time.

but as I remember, if you do it the same way every time, it'll work on every character that it works on.

which means practice on the more annoying characters, like.. Jin IIRC, and not the easier ones like Tager, Hakumen, Ragna.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Errol

[Vosetri]

Alright thanks I'll be sure to practice the loop whenever I get the chance.

[Kiba]

That's funny Errol because with those loops I would advise anyone to ask you or BatousaiJ haha. Trust me when I say doing loops are hard in that kind of connection but I'd rather learn the timing rather than going for the normal combo. I want my Tsubaki to look snazzy, and thanks for the compliment lol.

But yea, if ya need any help Vosetri, shoot.

[Vosetri]

I'm more of a defensive player, and I feel more comfortable playing more passively. I'm just not sure about the best way to do this. Any tips?

[Airk]

I'm more of a defensive player, and I feel more comfortable playing more passively. I'm just not sure about the best way to do this. Any tips?

You can't "play passively" in BB and have strong chances of winning, IMHO. Even the characters who can win by playing defensively have to play active defense - zoning, instant blocking, anti-airing, etc.

If you want to play defensively with Tsubaki, become a zen master of 2C, master hitconfirming 5B into 22A/D, and practice your instant blocking until you can do it blindfolded.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Airk

[Adam0812]

I would call tsu (or at least my tsu) passive aggressive, when the game is in neutral it can be hard to take the initiative, especially against someone like ragna where pressing buttons will get you killed.

Whilst the execution needed to perform her combos isn't particularly high, the skill of moving her into an advantageous position and out of danger is where I think a tsu players skill lies.

Learn how to punish your opponents appropriately. A baited DP when you have 1 stock and 50 heat can lead to almost 6k.

5c CH > 6c > stuff, destroys

[ThunderboltZ28]

I'm more of a defensive player, and I feel more comfortable playing more passively. I'm just not sure about the best way to do this. Any tips?

I really wish I could help you. I want to know a way to win defensively. All of my buttons are mapped to lose so all I can really do is sit back and defend.

[Adam0812]

I really wish I could help you. I want to know a way to win defensively. All of my buttons are mapped to lose so all I can really do is sit back and defend.

I really dont know what you mean by win defensively. Against good players like ragna who have superior normals and range you will be forced to defend and capitalise on openings and errors.

Tsu is a rushdown char with good pressure and you must make the most out your knockdowns.

Wanna win playing lame, playing lambda or mash that counter with haku

[Vosetri]

I would call tsu (or at least my tsu) passive aggressive, when the game is in neutral it can be hard to take the initiative, especially against someone like ragna where pressing buttons will get you killed.

This is more like what I wanted to ask. Like tips with baiting and when I should try to go in. Plus some other stuff like using my barrier better. I try to instant block but I always get so nervous.

[Adam0812]

This is more like what I wanted to ask. Like tips with baiting and when I should try to go in. Plus some other stuff like using my barrier better. I try to instant block but I always get so nervous.

Forget about instant blocking, I have played 5000 games with tsu and I don't consciously try to instant block, it's too risky, especially online and will get you killed generally.

I can't even begin to tell you what you should be doing as its entirely dependant on the character your playing against, I suggest you check out the match up threads for info.

Usually you uses barrier to create space between yourself and your opponent, this is very useful for someone like lambda who has poor defence, but because of tsu's poor range means its sometimes better not to barrier, e.g a barrier blocked gauntlet hades is impossible or very hard to punish because it leaves you too far away from rags.

Don't forget you have a DP aswell, use 623a if your opponent is rushing you down everytime they knock you down and showing no respect in general.

2b and 3c catch tech rolls and are useful if your opponent tries to roll out the corner.

I'm not sure where I'm going here but your question could not be answer without writing a thesis.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Adam0812

[Kiba]

I'm more of a defensive player, and I feel more comfortable playing more passively. I'm just not sure about the best way to do this. Any tips?

I would not advise playing a defensive style with Tsubaki because her defensive options are pretty bad and you're giving you're opponent more opportunities to take advantage of this. You would have to be good and honest with blocking and that's difficult against characters like Valkenhayn. Of course, you are free to play however you wish. Generally, if you're far with Tsubaki, you have the time to charge, whereas if you're only a few steps away from your opponent, you would back away or dash in and use 236D to get in, or 5B (has the most range and it's her best poke), but this comes down to which character you're playing against. For example if it's Valkenhayn in wolf mode and he's close, I like to use 236C/D, but if it's Litchi, you wouldn't want to go in and attack because her pokes have longer range than ours when she has the staff equipped. If it's Lambda, you would want to do everything in your power to get close to her because she can really cripple your getting in options.

The wiki has a few tips on how you can play more aggressivley, like utilising different kinds of pressure. Have a look and see if that helps.

Also, in the FAQ, answers to questions 5 & 7 may help you.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Kiba

[Errol]

Something else I've been wondering. I don't understand the frame data on mugen.

It says frame adv is +3.

and 'Opponent can perform actions 3F earlier than Tsubaki ' (sounds opposite of +3)

total recovery 7F+0

Startup?

Is there start up on it or not.. I try to use it as a reversal sometimes but if it doesn't work I just don't know if I was too slow on my D DP. lol...

[Airk]

Something else I've been wondering. I don't understand the frame data on mugen.

It says frame adv is +3.

and 'Opponent can perform actions 3F earlier than Tsubaki ' (sounds opposite of +3)

total recovery 7F+0

Startup?

Is there start up on it or not.. I try to use it as a reversal sometimes but if it doesn't work I just don't know if I was too slow on my D DP. lol...

Well, the thing is that since the move doesn't HIT, it doesn't really have "startup" or "active" frames. Like, if you look at Blood Kain or any of the 'mode change' supers, none of them have startup/active frames. The "7+0" means that you're in animation for 7 frames before super flash, and zero frames afterwards.

As for the mysterious "opponent can move three frames before you can" stuff, honestly, I'd say we'd have to test it. It's sortof the opposite of what they wrote for that in CS2, so I find myself wondering if it's a translation issue.

[Errol]

Right.. I'm going to guess that it was mistranslated this time around, and it's what it was in CS2, and in line with the '+3' number. the CS2 line is - Opponent has 3F after superflash until commands can be inputted.

So I think that would also mean they can't buffer anything to come out immediately, they'd have to do it directly on that frame. But, that doesn't tell me anything about stuff that is already in motion.

[Airk]

Right.. I'm going to guess that it was mistranslated this time around, and it's what it was in CS2, and in line with the '+3' number. the CS2 line is - Opponent has 3F after superflash until commands can be inputted.

So I think that would also mean they can't buffer anything to come out immediately, they'd have to do it directly on that frame. But, that doesn't tell me anything about stuff that is already in motion.

I think it's probably safe to assume the +3 is correct. Anyway, if you're DPing immediately, it doesn't really matter as long as they're not already hitting you before your DP even starts.

[Vosetri]

I'm not really sure where I would find this but what are Tsubaki's go-to wake up options?

[Adam0812]

I'm not really sure where I would find this but what are Tsubaki's go-to wake up options?

You can try 623a to get them of you but don't spam this as your opponent will quickly catch on, fortunately it doesn't leave you in a counter state so if it baited you won't eat it as hard as ragna or Jin would if their DP's are baited.

Generally speaking though I tend to neutral tech and block, try push them away with barrier, or 2a mash out if there's a gap or they dash cancel toward you.

Alot of the time you will need to be patient and respect your opponents oki pressure and look an opening.

[TheGreatReptar]

623A is decent, but it isn't invulnerable on its first active frame, so your opponent can force trades with it if they know the timing. It's also a projectile. 623D has first active frame invul in addition to not being a projectile. You can also cancel them into j.236D>j.214D (or just j.214D) on hit, block or whiff which if your opponent doesn't know how to punish it, it's safe. Both DPs have a deadzone on them where if the other guy just jumps forward on your wakeup, it'll whiff (which also causes things like 623A to go right through Gauntlet Hades or Hazama's stance overhead).

Mugen's really gimmicky, but it's fun to use as a wakeup option since you get a massive pause screen to punish whatever the other guy might have been doing when you decide to pop it. It has zero invul frames though, so even a really badly time meaty will beat it out. It doesn't consume the meter until like frame 6 on the startup though. I get hit out of it a lot without losing meter.

Also, you have 236236C, but it has really bad horizontal range. You can use it on things that 623A whiffs on, like Gauntlet Hades and the like though. You're usually better off doing 623A>RC

[Vosetri]

Thanks so much guys, I don't know what I would do without you.

@Simatron I forget about barrier too often.

@Reptar thanks for the info about Mugen( I guess I should go learn some Mugen combos now. )

[Daedron]

Whenever I try Mugen on wakeup I get beat out 90% of the time, that thing really needs invis frames.

Blood Kain has invis so why not Mugen? Oh right, it's Ragna, he always gets the better tools.

[TheGreatReptar]

Blood Kain on wakeup is still super risky though. If you mess up post-pause screen, you lose a mess load of health. There's a reason people don't use it as a wakeup option very often even though it's completely invulnerable.

Barrier's something that I forget about when I don't play for a while. Spacing your opponent to max 5C range then just sticking it out there works surprisingly well.

[Errol]

You should have a separate section for Konan

[Kiba]

^ Lol.

I can't even tell if you're being serious. Do you mean like the way Jourdal makes his video threads in the Mitsuru/Jin forums?

Honestly when you posted, I was looking forward to a video. This early? I must be crazy...

[pktazn]

Honestly we could probably do that for Konan, Kuresu, and Spinoza if they stick with Tsubaki in CP since they're pretty much the only real consistent Tsubakis that showed up in EX lol. Or whoever decides to main her consistently since it's a new version.

I know I saw over twitter they were interested in Izayoi too so when she comes out we'll see if they just flip-flop between the two or stick with only one (at least I'm pretty sure Spinoza is interested because almost all Tsubaki players are interested in her aha).

[Kiba]

Sounds nice. So the video thread will begin with videos by the triple threats and then can continue as normal with all the other vids? I'm on board with that, and I can make the changes.