Adelheid Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 Pulling this over here because it doesn't really seem relevant to Loktest discussion: I understand the point of the 'threat' of the command grab, but in high level play, I almost never see Hazama's command grab landed or even attempted. This, to me, means there's no good reason for an opponent to be afraid of it. My presumption is that since it's a 12 frame startup that's not strike invulnerable, AND if you land it remotely near to someone being in blockstun you get a purple grab, plus the very short range means that it's not worth it to high level players to represent this move except as a "haha, gotcha, I bet you weren't expecting THAT crappy move" sort of maneuver. Hazama has so many ways to spend his 50 heat > Jayoku that this one doesn't seem to be relevant. This is of course all subjective and based on watching way too many videos. It is possible to have a bad command grab. It is also possible to have Bang's command grab. Given that we Already know Tsubaki's command grab can be combo'd from based on what's been said regarding loctest data, yeah it seems like it's probably pretty good. Unlike Hazama, who does not usually want to be in range for his command grab and who doesn't get a lot off of it, Tsubaki naturally wants to be in range for her command grab during her long pressure strings. Why are you basing your argument on Hazama, who plays totally differently? Bang's pressure style is much more similar to Tsubaki than Hazama is, and he loves his command grab.
Airk Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 It is possible to have a bad command grab. It is also possible to have Bang's command grab. Given that we Already know Tsubaki's command grab can be combo'd from based on what's been said regarding loctest data, yeah it seems like it's probably pretty good. Unlike Hazama, who does not usually want to be in range for his command grab and who doesn't get a lot off of it, Tsubaki naturally wants to be in range for her command grab during her long pressure strings. Why are you basing your argument on Hazama, who plays totally differently? Bang's pressure style is much more similar to Tsubaki than Hazama is, and he loves his command grab. I'm "arguing" about this because someone popped into the other thread and said "You seem to forget Hazama's command grab." as if to say "Well just having a command grab automagically makes you better." I am arguing that that is not, in fact, a valid assumption - even if that grab can be comboed off, Ala Hazama. Bang's command grab is pretty nice, though mostly when he has 50 heat to really make it hurt. My whole point is, don't just start going "F*** YEAH! Command grab!" until we have more details. There's plenty of room for it to completely suck.
Adelheid Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 Bang's command grab is pretty nice, though mostly when he has 50 heat to really make it hurt. I cannot roll my eyes hard enough at this statement. Bang's command grab is always amazing, he doesn't need to be able to combo off of it for it to mess you the hell up, it adds to his options and that is enough for him. He's not the same character as Hazama. Tsubaki is much closer to Bang than Hazama. Why would you even... Have you even played this game against actual good players? Egh. Sigh. It is just not worth arguing with you. I'm done.
Airk Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 My gift for understatement has served me well once again. Anyway, I didn't even pick the damn example, so cut me some slack. Someone else used the "Just look at Hazama's command grab" card.
HajinShinobi Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 Oh gawd, charge moves x_x Well it's only one move, been playing her way too long to let that scare me off anyway. A new command grab sounds neat though, especially if we're able to combo off of it.
Airk Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 Oh gawd, charge moves x_x Well it's only one move, been playing her way too long to let that scare me off anyway. A new command grab sounds neat though, especially if we're able to combo off of it. At least it's not an down-up charge. (Or worse, an UP-down charge like Saki has in AH3). I can usually manage a 'back' charge, but down-up ones I always seem to end up jumping. x.x Did we ID this move as her projectile now? Super curious about that.
HajinShinobi Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 I really don't like using charge moves. It's the only reason why I'm not playing Mitsuru in P4A. But Tsubaki only has one so it's fine. Now the only issue is for me to find some place for P4A and BB locals that isn't too far away. Still not going to see me on Xboxlive anytime soon.
pktazn Posted August 6, 2012 Author Posted August 6, 2012 Did we ID this move as her projectile now? Super curious about that. Are you asking if her command grab is the projectile? I'm going to say no since it was reported her new charge move is the one that's a projectile.
HajinShinobi Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 I'm wondering if 22D will possibly eat up primers or make her plus (more blockstun maybe?) since it's no longer an unblockable. I'm also very curious about the range on her command throw and how much damage can be done from combo'ing off of it.
Airk Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 Are you asking if her command grab is the projectile? I'm going to say no since it was reported her new charge move is the one that's a projectile. ...what? No? How would that even work? @_@ I was doublechecking/rambling that the charge move was the projectile. And there are no primers now Hajin, so 22D won't break them, but it's possible it could be her new guard breaking move (where if they're not barriering and you hit A+B you break their guard by spending 25% heat. Not sure about the order of events here - maybe you spend the 25% heat just to TRY to break guard?) but that would...er...kinda suck, since it'd require us to spend a charge AND 25% heat to try to guard break, whereas I bet most other characters won't have to burn resources to use a guard break move. So yeah. Kinda hoping that's not what it does. But I'll still be a litte sad if it's just "Well, the D version wallbounds, so you can do better combos with it" because while still useful, that's not very exciting.
pktazn Posted August 6, 2012 Author Posted August 6, 2012 ...what? No? How would that even work? @_@ I was doublechecking/rambling that the charge move was the projectile. Herpaderp I mis-read your post. My bad :D
HajinShinobi Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 ...what? No? How would that even work? @_@ I was doublechecking/rambling that the charge move was the projectile. And there are no primers now Hajin, so 22D won't break them, but it's possible it could be her new guard breaking move (where if they're not barriering and you hit A+B you break their guard by spending 25% heat. Not sure about the order of events here - maybe you spend the 25% heat just to TRY to break guard?) but that would...er...kinda suck, since it'd require us to spend a charge AND 25% heat to try to guard break, whereas I bet most other characters won't have to burn resources to use a guard break move. So yeah. Kinda hoping that's not what it does. But I'll still be a litte sad if it's just "Well, the D version wallbounds, so you can do better combos with it" because while still useful, that's not very exciting. Oh, whoops. *Must read moar*
redsilversnake Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 ...what? No? How would that even work? @_@ I was doublechecking/rambling that the charge move was the projectile. And there are no primers now Hajin, so 22D won't break them, but it's possible it could be her new guard breaking move (where if they're not barriering and you hit A+B you break their guard by spending 25% heat. Not sure about the order of events here - maybe you spend the 25% heat just to TRY to break guard?) but that would...er...kinda suck, since it'd require us to spend a charge AND 25% heat to try to guard break, whereas I bet most other characters won't have to burn resources to use a guard break move. So yeah. Kinda hoping that's not what it does. But I'll still be a litte sad if it's just "Well, the D version wallbounds, so you can do better combos with it" because while still useful, that's not very exciting. Someone described a move for Platinum that's most likely her crush trigger, and it was a completely new animation. So 22D will most likely remain a combo tool. Unless it does indeed become + on block, which would be nice.
HajinShinobi Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 right you are PK, tbh im not bothered about the dp whiffs, i always found they were a bit tricky for what you get out of them, especially in CSE, infact id say im glad if these are taken out as i wont feel that im missing a tool to make me a complete tsu player Using Tsubaki's DP whiff combos didn't make anyone a "Complete Tsu player" during CSII. Playing her correctly as much as possible did.
Adam0812 Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 Using Tsubaki's DP whiff combos didn't make anyone a "Complete Tsu player" during CSII. Playing her correctly as much as possible did. Well in CSE imagine you are mid screen and your opponent has about 3500 health and you have 50 meter and 1 charge. You hit them with 5B. You are only gonna a kill using a DP wiff combo with a super tacked on. by having the tools to maximise output in any situation, this is what I mean by being a complete player
HajinShinobi Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 Well in CSE imagine you are mid screen and your opponent has about 3500 health and you have 50 meter and 1 charge. You hit them with 5B. You are only gonna a kill using a DP wiff combo with a super tacked on. by having the tools to maximise output in any situation, this is what I mean by being a complete player That's just maximizing on damage. You just said that yourself lol. Maximizing damage and being a complete player are different things.
Adam0812 Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 Part of being a complete player is maximising damage
Iza Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 The DP whiff is what made it fun for me to use Tsu during CS2 i didnt care if i dropped it everytime, they then put a brick on it in Ex and killed all my motivation
HajinShinobi Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) Part of being a complete player is maximising damage No, part of being a "Complete Player" is maximizing damage to the best of your ability. Not maximizing damage with the highest damaging combo. Yes, it is always better to do these higher damaging combos for higher damage. But if one is unable to do so, then one should NOT center their gameplan around this. There have hundreds of times in tournament play when a player is playing very solid. But they end up losing momentum because they try to get greedy and step out of their own comfort zone to perform a combo or setup they obviously can't do. Being a complete player is being able to handle EVERYTHING with your character to the best of your own ability. This means handling your character's matchups well, knowing how to handle almost every situation, and staying level headed while playing. If you have to use a combo that is a little less damaging than a combo that would be more "appropriate" for that situation, then so be it. Not being able to perform a certain combo(s), but can play 10 times better than the player(s) that can, is what is more important. Anyone can practice high damaging combos. Edited August 8, 2012 by HajinShinobi
Adam0812 Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 The DP whiff is what made it fun for me to use Tsu during CS2 i didnt care if i dropped it everytime, they then put a brick on it in Ex and killed all my motivation I really like the 623c > j236a(w) > j214d stuff she has in extend, fav is using it mid screen from fatal 3c. 3cFC > 623c > j236a(w) > j214d > jD(0.1) ) > AD > jC > corner stuff. So swag
Errol Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 No, part of being a "Complete Player" is maximizing damage to the best of your ability. Not maximizing damage with the highest damaging combo. Yes, it is always better to do these higher damaging combos for higher damage. But if one is unable to do so, then one should NOT center their gameplan around this. There have hundreds of times in tournament play when a player is playing very solid. But they end up losing momentum because they try to get greedy and step out of their own comfort zone to perform a combo or setup they obviously can't do. Being a complete player is being able to handle EVERYTHING with your character to the best of your own ability. This means handling your character's matchups well, knowing how to handle almost every situation, and staying level headed while playing. If you have to use a combo that is a little less damaging than a combo that would be more "appropriate" for that situation, then so be it. Not being able to perform a certain combo(s), but can play 10 times better than the player(s) that can, is what is more important. Anyone can practice high damaging combos. What? I disagree. I agree that it's important to do the best you can. But Dp whiff combos in CS2 were vastly superior to other combos. It's a big factor. 'To the best of your ability' being all that is necessary is a good joke. Like you said, if you can play better than someone else, that is what counts. It turns out that being able to do dp whiff combos consistently makes you play better, i.e. you will win more. But then, you can just play the game to have fun. I recommend that. Take it as far as you enjoy it.
HajinShinobi Posted August 8, 2012 Posted August 8, 2012 What? I disagree. I agree that it's important to do the best you can. But Dp whiff combos in CS2 were vastly superior to other combos. It's a big factor. 'To the best of your ability' being all that is necessary is a good joke. Like you said, if you can play better than someone else, that is what counts. It turns out that being able to do dp whiff combos consistently makes you play better, i.e. you will win more. But then, you can just play the game to have fun. I recommend that. Take it as far as you enjoy it. Yeah, DP whiffs were practically the way to combo with Tsubaki in CSII, I know. But just because you can do them doesn't automatically make you better than the player that can't do them. If the player that can't do them is playing more solid than the one that can, that player is not better simply because he can't do DP whiffs? If this player places higher in competitive play over another player that can do DP whiffs, that player isn't better simply because he can't do DP whiffs? Like you said, if you can play better than someone else, that is what counts. You just basically summarized my last post with this one statement.
Adam0812 Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 rednova do you play on xbl much? add me and lets have a rumble, though tsu v tsu ironically is probably my worst match
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