Star-Demon Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) OH HERE WE GOOOOOOO! New tier list, courtesy of Jiyuna. I don't know where he got it from though. S+: Tao, Litchi, Hakumen S: Hazama, Jin, Valkenhayn, Mu A: Arakune, Carl, Rachel, Azrael B: Ragna, Relius, Tager, Platinum, Nu, Bang, Tsubaki C: Izayoi, Bullet, Amane, Makoto Not for nothing, but the only reason Jiyuna should get to post a tier list is because he's in Japan and is playing the game. I'd rather have him explain it himself than troll us with some arbitrary tier list with no foundations or assumptions behind it because we're just going to have yet another Tier list arguefest. This list isn't worth discussing as is - File it away once we get our own release and have a real discussion. Top tier Litchi again is making me so, so sad It's more than likely that as her game gets figured out and technology develops for other characters she won't be thought of as S/S+. I've been watching and not really laughing as much as I would watching early Yuzuriha videos. Again - S+ (to me) means you got some seriously silly broken bullshit. Someone please come forward that is Jiyuna or Shounen and tell me about the Top Tier Bullshit Litchi has and compare it to other characters so I understand. (and can abuse the shit out of it) Other than that LOL TIERLIST DISCUSSION! Edited January 29, 2013 by Star-Demon
STenSatsu Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) I think what you are missing is actually having played the game. Truthbomb. On a real note, Amane seems to have huge problems escaping pressure. He also has rather ass damage overall without lvl3 and even worse damage at many areas inside his C normals' reach. I do think he's still very underdeveloped but given that the tier lists on the bbs have everything some lists from SS-D tiers while others are S-A or A-C I'm not worried about him. He seems to do fine in tournies given is lack of popularity and star players. (Shadow and Spinking being the only biggish names and Spinking had to learn BB from scratch iirc.) Edited January 29, 2013 by STenSatsu
Ctrlaltwtf Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Are you kidding me? What am I missing about Amane that makes him C-tier? By design, he's a character that punishes you for blocking, which should make him a strong offensive character by definition, right? So what if he doesn't have any meterless reversal options? Tao and Valk don't either, and they're both S-tier according to the list. His range seems good from pretty much anywhere on the screen (maybe his mid-screen is lacking comparatively?), and his combo damage doesn't seem too bad considering how much they've been scaled since the new game. Seriously, what am I not noticing? I think his chip-drilll really isn't all that impressive in serious play. And it's not like people can't just barrier block it. I think if we actually got our hands on the game we'd see that his moves aren't particularly easy to use. From I've seen, his Specials all look like some different kind of Hungry Coils: really specific hitboxes and lots of recovery on whiff.
C0R Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Again - S+ (to me) means you got some seriously silly broken bullshit. Someone please come forward that is Jiyuna or Shounen and tell me about the Top Tier Bullshit Litchi has and compare it to other characters so I understand. (and can abuse the shit out of it) To be fair her CT is actually amazing, like incredible. Like let's do it all day every day and people will cry bloody tears.
Ctrlaltwtf Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 To be fair her CT is actually amazing, like incredible. Like let's do it all day every day and people will cry bloody tears. Does she have ways of guaranteeing it off of a stick-projectile pressure? I can see that being really stupid. But honestly when it comes to CT, I can't imagine anyone but Carl/Relius doing some seriously annoying shit with it. Fully charged, guaranteed CTs gogogo.
Airk Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Does she have ways of guaranteeing it off of a stick-projectile pressure? I can see that being really stupid. But honestly when it comes to CT, I can't imagine anyone but Carl/Relius doing some seriously annoying shit with it. Fully charged, guaranteed CTs gogogo. Huh? You can charge crush triggers?
Ctrlaltwtf Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Huh? You can charge crush triggers? Yes. I believe the more charged they are, the more barrier gauge they deplete on block.
Star-Demon Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 To be fair her CT is actually amazing, like incredible. Like let's do it all day every day and people will cry bloody tears. Gotchya! U GONNA GET DRAGON'D!
mAc Chaos Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Ah yes, her CT. I remember Dacid and others were talking about how great that would be a while back. Isn't it also + on block too.
Fluck Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Are you kidding me? What am I missing about Amane that makes him C-tier? By design, he's a character that punishes you for blocking, which should make him a strong offensive character by definition, right? So what if he doesn't have any meterless reversal options? Tao and Valk don't either, and they're both S-tier according to the list. His range seems good from pretty much anywhere on the screen (maybe his mid-screen is lacking comparatively?), and his combo damage doesn't seem too bad considering how much they've been scaled since the new game. Seriously, what am I not noticing? Um, Amane is a character based on chip, in a game where Barrier exists. A mechanic that completely negates chip. Sure, he'll drain you of you of your barrier really quick, but he needs to get to level 3 and make sure he doesn't overheat and then drain your barrier before he can even START to chip you. His neutral is also pretty ass due to the hitboxes of his cloth normals and his defense is bad. Oh yeah, and he has crappy ass mixup compared to Valk and Tao. Why is Litchi's CT DP safe anyways? It moves her hurtbox back while she charges it, so much so that it causes Inferno Divider to whiff.
Jackie Chandler Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Tao and Valk have ridiculous movement options and Tao might as well be 100% safe. Yeah, their mobility is freaking amazing- that's why their offense is equally great. I wasn't doubting their place in the list. I was just making the observation that Amane, who has a similar flaw in his defensive game, ended up on the other end of the tier list. I think what you are missing is actually having played the game. Not sure if this was intended as an insult or not, but I totally agree. There's only so much I can grasp from watching gameplay videos. That doesn't mean I'm not going to make judgements based on what I see in those videos, though. On a real note, Amane seems to have huge problems escaping pressure. He also has rather ass damage overall without lvl3 and even worse damage at many areas inside his C normals' reach. I do think he's still very underdeveloped but given that the tier lists on the bbs have everything some lists from SS-D tiers while others are S-A or A-C I'm not worried about him. He seems to do fine in tournies given is lack of popularity and star players. (Shadow and Spinking being the only biggish names and Spinking had to learn BB from scratch iirc.) I've noticed that. Even utilizing instant blocking, his close range normals don't seem all that great to interrupt pressure with, and his Distortion doesn't seem all that great for the purpose, either. There's always Counter Assault, but it sucks to have to waste meter just to make up for that fact. As for the damage part, his combo damage (especially outside Level 3) doesn't seem like the best, but CP BnB's don't seem to do all that much damage anyway (save a few characters, and especially when compared to Extend's). Besides, it doesn't seem hard at all to get to Level 3 Drill, and since his chip damage on it is so great, people are going to be expending Barrier to prevent it and make the moves even more positive than they normally are. Not that I really know the frame data on all those moves, but conceptually... Yeah, it's a thing. I think his chip-drilll really isn't all that impressive in serious play. And it's not like people can't just barrier block it. I think if we actually got our hands on the game we'd see that his moves aren't particularly easy to use. From I've seen, his Specials all look like some different kind of Hungry Coils: really specific hitboxes and lots of recovery on whiff. It might not be all that impressive in tourney play, but that doesn't change the fact that they do ridiculous damage if not Barriered, and that there are setups Amane can put you in where you have to block them. You can use your Barrier, sure, but it's definitely a much more finite resource than other BB's, and with the way Crush Triggers and Amane's specials work, it'll be much more difficult to know when you need to use it. I do agree with that last part, though. The hitboxes for most of his moves seem geared toward either a long or close-range, with not much emphasis on the mid-range. If he's kept at a mid-range, I do think he'd have trouble against a lot of opponents- but his mobility doesn't seem so skewed that he couldn't do an airdash forward or backward to alleviate that problem and put his range back into viability. EDIT: Um, Amane is a character based on chip, in a game where Barrier exists. A mechanic that completely negates chip. Sure, he'll drain you of you of your barrier really quick, but he needs to get to level 3 and make sure he doesn't overheat and then drain your barrier before he can even START to chip you. His neutral is also pretty ass due to the hitboxes of his cloth normals and his defense is bad. Oh yeah, and he has crappy ass mixup compared to Valk and Tao. I understand that, but Barrier is a very important, much more limited resource in CP. Like I said above, it doesn't seem hard for Amane to get to Level 3- just a few blocked specials (which your opponent will likely see fit to Barrier anyway) and you're there. In the hands of someone who knows how to play the character, you will rarely see Amane's drill gauge overheat (though I will admit, it seems like an annoying mechanic to micromanage). And it's not like you can just use up all your Barrier and be perfectly okay until you get it back- because you get put into Danger for losing it all in CP, you have to be careful about when you do and don't use it. Against a good Amane, there WILL be times where you'll have to eat chip damage before you run out of Barrier, because if you don't, you'll lose even more health than you normally would. As for his mixups, yeah, they definitely seem like some of the worst in the game. But if he had good mixups on top of the whole godly chip mechanic thing, he'd be kind of ridiculous. tl;dr- I acknowledge Amane's flaws, but I think his unique offense is a strong plus, and I still don't think he belongs in C-tier. Judging from the performances I've seen in videos, I'd put him in mid to high B-tier, at the lowest. Edited January 30, 2013 by Jackie Chandler
Ctrlaltwtf Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 The fact that nearly all the new characters are at the bottom does make me doubt the authenticity of it somewhat.
C0R Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 The fact that nearly all the new characters are at the bottom does make me doubt the authenticity of it somewhat. Why? These characters have been out for the least amount of time and their metagame is the most undeveloped? It doesn't surprise me at all.
mAc Chaos Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Yeah, their mobility is freaking amazing- that's why their offense is equally great. I wasn't doubting their place in the list. I was just making the observation that Amane, who has a similar flaw in his defensive game, ended up on the other end of the tier list. My point was their offensive and movement capabilities are a huge deal, and that's what makes them S and beyond. Amane doesn't have that. If you took away Tao's offensive capabilities and her movement then she would just be a shitty Carl.
Errol Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 The fact that nearly all the new characters are at the bottom does make me doubt the authenticity of it somewhat. Like I said, Jiyuna hasn't tweeted a tier list recently. If he tweeted it, then I think he deleted it. It doesn't resemble any recent list from jbbs. Most lists from jbbs don't bother with a C. it's S to B. but usually there's an A+, or something. I'm not sure if there's been a normal tier list posted on there in a while. Recently it has been more people posting stats, how many players above certain dan rankings by character, max dan ranking by character, etc. Also, any tier list ultimately reflects what the current state of the game is. So for new characters to be at the bottom is unsurprising and also totally legitimate.
Ctrlaltwtf Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Why? These characters have been out for the least amount of time and their metagame is the most undeveloped? It doesn't surprise me at all. This is true, but at the same time I can't help but feel they simply haven't been explored enough. In the arcades, people don't seem to want to waste their time (and in this case, money) learning the intricacies of them when they could just play a familiar character they've mained since CT. That being said, I don't doubt Izayoi's tier at present. She's the one new character I've seen that my reaction was significantly underwhelming. At least Amane/Bullet have things that are like "oh, look out for that!" but Izayoi just seems incredibly simple, to a fault. And we all know Azrael is actually just Azrael-tier. Edited January 30, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf
Jackie Chandler Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 My point was their offensive and movement capabilities are a huge deal, and that's what makes them S and beyond. Amane doesn't have that. If you took away Tao's offensive capabilities and her movement then she would just be a shitty Carl. I agree. But if Litchi and Hakumen are any indication, you don't need fantastic mobility to rank high on the tier list. I'm not trying to say Amane has something he doesn't- I just don't think his flaws are as exaggerated as everyone (and to an extent, the tier list) is making them out to be.
mAc Chaos Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 I agree. But if Litchi and Hakumen are any indication, you don't need fantastic mobility to rank high on the tier list. I'm not trying to say Amane has something he doesn't- I just don't think his flaws are as exaggerated as everyone (and to an extent, the tier list) is making them out to be. Litchi and Hakumen have other things to make up for it. Of course there is a chance that Amane has a whole bunch of secret stuff waiting for players to discover it. But the tier lists only reflect what the understanding is NOW, not what might be possible.
NeoGio0o Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Most of the tier list are very opinionated and are made from the perspective of "how well does my main do against the cast?" From a Ragna players point of view Lambda is beyond GOD tier, however from a Tao/Valk/Hazama players point of view Lambda is like 2014 ass and should be replaced with Robo-Ragna. Rather than arguing why characters are where they are I think it be better to try and figure out who posted it to begin with and who do they main. I for one think that Tao specifically has only truly been S in CS1 when she had everything and then some. For every other version I always find that she is like that one Vergil quote when he is activating X factor "I need more power"!
Errol Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 People posting on jbbs are random internet peeps. It's kind of a majority rules thing anyway. People make their own tweaks to the last list posted, then other people notice that they dropped jin to A and call them out for being a Jin player, etc. And the majority of the world hates Tao so don't expect her to show up below S/A in any jbbs tier list for any BB game ever. But recently has been just stats stuff, like I said. People compiling info from the players guild site.
mAc Chaos Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Most of the tier list are very opinionated and are made from the perspective of "how well does my main do against the cast?" From a Ragna players point of view Lambda is beyond GOD tier, however from a Tao/Valk/Hazama players point of view Lambda is like 2014 ass and should be replaced with Robo-Ragna. Rather than arguing why characters are where they are I think it be better to try and figure out who posted it to begin with and who do they main. I for one think that Tao specifically has only truly been S in CS1 when she had everything and then some. For every other version I always find that she is like that one Vergil quote when he is activating X factor "I need more power"! So, this tier list has Hakumen, Litchi and Tao as S tier. List maker confirmed for Tager main.
Ctrlaltwtf Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 So, this tier list has any character ever as S tier. List maker confirmed for Tager main. Here, let me help you with that mAc. I am surprised by B tier Tager though. I figured he'd be E-Tier or something, but apparently his new shit is doing work.
toanenadiz Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 I just ignore tier lists since it doesn't matter where my character on it since it doesn't help me figure out which are Lambda's bad match-ups. Not that I really need to know at this point... They are pretty much always going to be the same unless ArcSys screws up somehow. And the majority of the world hates Tao so don't expect her to show up below S/A in any jbbs tier list for any BB game ever. People need to stop hating.
E3vE3 WAZ HEA Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 So, this tier list has Hakumen, Litchi and Tao as S tier. List maker confirmed for Tager main. this besides, i don't pay attention to that sht, i just play whoever the hell i like.
Recommended Posts