[CP] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

[Mike Z]

Tager players have been asking for Sledge Break since CT. It would seriously solve like 90% of all his problems. It ain't happenin', by Mori's choice.

Magnetism 'break' USED to be 5D, when it had good pull and pulled the entire time, before and after active. But y'know, that went away right before I stopped playing (not entirely unrelated!).

This is some of that "Why I have no respect for BB's design team" stuff I was skipping before. They have no clear goal, and don't approach problems properly game-wide. That new combo system, ugh...

[Osuna]

Tager players have been asking for Sledge Break since CT. It would seriously solve like 90% of all his problems. It ain't happenin', by Mori's choice.

Magnetism 'break' USED to be 5D, when it had good pull and pulled the entire time, before and after active. But y'know, that went away right before I stopped playing (not entirely unrelated!).

This is some of that "Why I have no respect for BB's design team" stuff I was skipping before. They have no clear goal, and don't approach problems properly game-wide. That new combo system, ugh...

5D Kara > Things. Was too cool to be allowed, like 6A jump cancel and level 0 5A

[Airk]

This is some of that "Why I have no respect for BB's design team" stuff I was skipping before. They have no clear goal, and don't approach problems properly game-wide. That new combo system, ugh...

I'd like to hear (since if you explained elsewhere, I missed it) exactly -why- you dislike the new combo system other than feeling that it's like, inelegant in some way or something. So far, the results seem very good.

[Hecatom]

snip

snip

Tager needs more than just having better magnetism, magnetism alone wouldn't help him to cover his other weak points

This is some of that "Why I have no respect for BB's design team" stuff I was skipping before. They have no clear goal, and don't approach problems properly game-wide. That new combo system, ugh...

Outside the valid complaints that i share (mostly), i am still not sure that the new combo system is precisely like it was explained on that interview, dunno man, but i feel that there is also more about the combo system than that, also, anything can sound retarded if is barely explained

Also, from what i know all the battle system decisions are made by Pachi (conspiracy theories say that he hates grapplers) not Mori, Mori is more like Alex Ahad with SG, just saying.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Hecatom

[mAc Chaos]

This is some of that "Why I have no respect for BB's design team" stuff I was skipping before. They have no clear goal, and don't approach problems properly game-wide. That new combo system, ugh...

Is that really any different than any other balancing team. I mean look at Capcom.

I always figured balancing properly would be something beyond most game design teams anyway aside from happy accidents. Mainly because, just since you made the game doesn't mean you're going to be a pro at it. Their judgement and how they look at things isn't necessarily going to be the same thing as someone who can win tournaments. Loketests apparently don't do enough either given the results.

[Skye]

It's more along the lines of a particular feel or style of a character that they want to keep intact with the approved changes.

Or something.

[Hecatom]

Is that really any different than any other balancing team. I mean look at Capcom.

I always figured balancing properly would be something beyond most game design teams anyway aside from happy accidents. Mainly because, just since you made the game doesn't mean you're going to be a pro at it. Their judgement and how they look at things isn't necessarily going to be the same thing as someone who can win tournaments. Loketests apparently don't do enough either given the results.

I think that he is talking more about how BB changes drastically between iterations, while still keeping some problems on the balance, like with Tager.

BTW, i have to say that i don't really see as a bad thing that BB goes through those changes between each iteration of the series, but i can certainly understand why some people wouldn't be fan of the idea.

[mAc Chaos]

I think that means less that it's a "balance problem" and more like an intentional choice. Like Capcom and their "built in" tiers.

[Isuna]

I don't know man, the continuous magnetism pull sounds interesting, but there is also a lot of stuff to take in consideration, to get some real use of it, we should be low on health otherwise it wouldn't last enough time, it can potentially change the way that some combos work for the worse, also in theory could help on the bad matchups like Hazama, Tao and Valk only if the pull affect them when they are moving, if not there is not much real gain of it.

The orignal OD wasn't continous pull, it was continous magnetism. Opponent really couldn't get into the air without getting a Collider in their face.

Outside the valid complaints that i share (mostly), i am still not sure that the new combo system is precisely like it was explained on that interview, dunno man, but i feel that there is also more about the combo system than that, also, anything can sound retarded if is barely explained

Oh, which are these "valid complaints"? （｀・ω・´）

The new combo system (if it really has changed) truly is still in the dark. I mean didn't they say they were going to limit us to about 5 seconds from a bad starter and 7 seconds for a good one? I looked at that Noel combo video Jourdal uploaded, allmost all her combos are 10 seconds, so if they wanted to limit the time to do combos they have failed. Without checking, I would guess that Hakumen midscreen loop combos are also longer in time than his old BnB.

Is that really any different than any other balancing team. I mean look at Capcom.

I always figured balancing properly would be something beyond most game design teams anyway aside from happy accidents. Mainly because, just since you made the game doesn't mean you're going to be a pro at it. Their judgement and how they look at things isn't necessarily going to be the same thing as someone who can win tournaments. Loketests apparently don't do enough either given the results.

It is an entire different genre of games, but look at StarCraft II and its community. While Blizzard surely is an ass to many good propositions, they are learning to listen more and more to the players. I think one of the main problem for BB (any Japanese game) is that there is no dialogue between the companies and their players.

I mean, surely we get to write notes on the loketests, but do we really get an response?

Why haven't Mori told us about the design teams plans?

Why is there no offical "we think Tager will be okay as soon as players learn to use sparkryuuken properly"?

If that was the case, we players could test and confirm or deny those statements.

As of right now, we ramble about it in English and they will never take notice, and I wonder if Mori & Co even checks the JBBS or if they are content with "we do our game our way, play it if you want".

[Airk]

It is an entire different genre of games, but look at StarCraft II and its community. While Blizzard surely is an ass to many good propositions, they are learning to listen more and more to the players. I think one of the main problem for BB (any Japanese game) is that there is no dialogue between the companies and their players.

I mean, surely we get to write notes on the loketests, but do we really get an response?

Why haven't Mori told us about the design teams plans?

Why is there no offical "we think Tager will be okay as soon as players learn to use sparkryuuken properly"?

If that was the case, we players could test and confirm or deny those statements.

As of right now, we ramble about it in English and they will never take notice, and I wonder if Mori & Co even checks the JBBS or if they are content with "we do our game our way, play it if you want".

I agree with THIS more than anything.

I feel the Japanese method of balancing this stuff needs to be confined to the dustbin of the early nineties so we can get one with approaching balance in a more holistic and informed way, but I think that has nothing to do with the "BB team" as such.

[TagerTime]

The new combo system (if it really has changed) truly is still in the dark. I mean didn't they say they were going to limit us to about 5 seconds from a bad starter and 7 seconds for a good one? I looked at that Noel combo video Jourdal uploaded, allmost all her combos are 10 seconds, so if they wanted to limit the time to do combos they have failed. Without checking, I would guess that Hakumen midscreen loop combos are also longer in time than his old BnB.

Those were only just random numbers he used as an example:

Pachi: We changed the combo's main rule. Until now, the more damage you deal in a combo, the less time you are given to perform it. This time, however, the length of the combo is decided by the first hit. For example, if you start a combo with an A move, you can do the combo for 5 seconds, and if you start a combo with a C move, you can do it for about 7 seconds. Of course, those are just random figures, so you should research it yourself if you want to know the exact numbers.

Famitsu: So the new idea for the combos is limiting its length whatever the number of hits and damage is.

Pachi: Right. It comes down to dealing as much damage as you can in a fixed period of time. Of course, there are some ways to break the time limit with things like Distortion Drives. We're feeling good about the time limit, since we adjusted it so many times.

I would assume other ways to break the limit is Fatal counters and Overdrive.

It is an entire different genre of games, but look at StarCraft II and its community. While Blizzard surely is an ass to many good propositions, they are learning to listen more and more to the players. I think one of the main problem for BB (any Japanese game) is that there is no dialogue between the companies and their players.

I mean, surely we get to write notes on the loketests, but do we really get an response?

Why haven't Mori told us about the design teams plans?

Why is there no offical "we think Tager will be okay as soon as players learn to use sparkryuuken properly"?

If that was the case, we players could test and confirm or deny those statements.

As of right now, we ramble about it in English and they will never take notice, and I wonder if Mori & Co even checks the JBBS or if they are content with "we do our game our way, play it if you want".

Thats why i like Team Ninjas new approach with Dead or Alive 5. They decided to make it an important priority to directly engage and listen to community feedback in making, updating and balancing the game.

One Example:DOA5 Director Yohei Shimbori tweeted that the team is looking to the fanbase to see what they would like to have patched in Dead or Alive 5

I know it has nothing to do with gameplay, but that diagonal Spark Bolt looks awful. They didn't even bother to draw like the 3 angled-back shot frames he needed. Ah well.

I wonder if 2C xx XYH, 5C works now.

It will still work on counter hit. From recent vidoes i seen, even though 2C is no longer fatal the hitstun on regular counter 2C is the same as the hitsun of old fatal counter 2C.

You can link to times in Twitch videos, btw, you just have to use ?t= instead of the #t= that Youtube wants.

http://www.twitch.tv/central804/b/342583745?t=3h10m43s See?

Thanks mike i never knew that.

Also, from what i know all the battle system decisions are made by Pachi (conspiracy theories say that he hates grapplers) not Mori, Mori is more like Alex Ahad with SG, just saying.

Almost Everyone thinks MikeZ is skullgirls and never heard of or know who Alex Ahad is, just like almost everoyone thinks Mori is BlazBlue and never heard of or know who Pachi is.

Edited December 15, 2012 by TagerTime

[mAc Chaos]

I'm seeing Grand Punish used as a quick overhead and footsies tool. So it looks like it has more use than just combo finisher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Br99MQ6ac8&feature=youtu.be

Those teleports look like a huge pain.

Edited December 17, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Skye]

I thought GP hit mid...

I'm sure I read that somewhere.

Plus he's in recovery all the way to the ground, so lol no on the footsies.

[mAc Chaos]

Look at those matches.

[Skye]

I did.

I know Tager and his gimmicks, but is the risk worth the reward? It's as much a footsies tool as B Sledge, imo.

[mAc Chaos]

That seemed more like he saw the move coming or even saw the startup and used GP to beat it clean in some cases. Like at 2:40. And it looks like the extended animation doesn't happen unless you land a hit.

He uses it around 1:07 too and it doesn't cripple him.

Edited December 17, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[toanenadiz]

What happens if someone blocks it?

[TagerTime]

This was posted a while ago anout Grand Punish from jbbs:

JC movement>Gurren results in some pretty interesting movements.

JC momentum carries over to Gurren, allowing you to fly about double the distance of regular JC movement.

You can use it to hit people who try to punish your JC movement recovery, or just use it to cover large distances (for Tager) in one go, etc.

Of course, you're wide open on block so it's a bit of a gamble if you don't have 50% meter, but if you do it from midrange, Gurren sort of crosses over and does a hit-and-away, making it not easily punishable even on block.

Additionally, Gurren starter RC combos do pretty good damage, so going on the offensive with it when you have 50% meter might not be a bad option.

[Manta]

Probably already answered, but what the hell. Can CT only be used after any special-cancellable move? Just wondering if you can do 2D > CT or some other weird shit like that.

(Need to get around to revamping that Tager Guide for CP at some point).

[Darlos9D]

I'm seeing Grand Punish used as a quick overhead and footsies tool. So it looks like it has more use than just combo finisher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Br99MQ6ac8&feature=youtu.be

Those teleports look like a huge pain.

As has been stated, it's not really an overhead. It does however move him forward a bit. Something I really want to see is whether or not it would make a good quick crossup when you're right next to the opponent.

Also it does launch Tager upward slightly, changing his falling momentum, which can mess with people's aim and timing if used sparingly. Like at about 2:45 when he avoided and countered Azrael's super with it.

You're right that it doesn't actually seem that punishable on whiff. Though that might just be people not being used to it.

EDIT: Damn, watching this whole thing, grand punish is looking pretty awesome. It has a HUGE attack box, but at the same time it doesn't seem like his arm is actually vulnerable since Azrael's attacks often went right through it. Seems like you have to hit Tager's body, which gets moved up and out of the way during the attack. Chaos might be right.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Darlos9D

[mAc Chaos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Br99MQ6ac8&feature=youtu.be#t=8m00s

He uses it pretty well about 8 minutes in. That entire round.

[Darlos9D]

You got me kinda hype, Chaos, I have to admit.

Anybody know who that tager is?

[mAc Chaos]

I can't help it. I started getting j.2C flashbacks as soon as I saw it.

[Darlos9D]

The way GP moves his body upward and has such a big hitbox, it seems like it'd be a great way to jump in on somebody and maybe flat-out punish an anti-air. Actually being threatening on jump-in would be a hell of a change. Imagine jumping in on Ragna and him actually having to wonder what you're going to do, rather than just being like "oh uh 6A I guess."

[Scottie Yosh]

This and air buster has me a bit hype lol