[CP] Izayoi Gameplay Discussion - Tobe! Gandamu!

[Surf]

If it just cost 50 meter and 2 stars that would be ok. 50 and 4 stars is way too much given that it's not that great. There are safe ways to get into trans am and the opponent is forced to deal with it. And if you get a confirm it goes into a 4k+ combo. It good to use end match in certain situation. If you want to go out with some flash. But as said before its still not really viable just because of the hefty cost it has. Im hoping it has some hidden change in 1.1

Edited March 8, 2014 by Surf

[Angel-tastic]

Honestly, while Trans-Am does the most damage midscreen, it's only like 500 or so more damage than Justice Phorizer would do from the same confirm, and 4 stocks > 500 damage pretty much 99% of the time.

On top of that, when you're close enough to the corner (like 75% of the screen pretty much), you can just do mid-combo Justice Phorizer -> 214D -> 5C -> etc. for 4 stocks (3 after the patch) like Celerity mentioned in the combo thread, which does about the same damage as Trans-Am combos IIRC. Trans-Am is pretty hard to combo into as well, and 2C counter combos with Justice Phorizer can do 5k+ damage anyway for 2 stocks. And with overdrive or in the corner, Justice Phorizer seems like it's always better.

Trans-Am isn't bad by any means, far from it in fact, but in general it just seems like Justice Phorizer is better in every situation.

If the supers weren't competing for the same 50 meter, people would probably use Trans-Am a lot more often.

It might be cool if Trans-Am cost 4 stocks and no meter or something, so people could still use it if they had to Counter Assault or Rapid Cancel.

I think 4 stocks is worth a super; that's what Haku-men pays anyway, although he only has one meter.

25 meter and 2 stocks would make it really tempting to use as well. I think 4 stocks + 25 meter is fair for 5k+ damage, especially since Trans-Am is kind of hard to confirm into, and that's not that much more than a 2C confirm gives you anyway.

[7r17r1]

A little question on Izayoi's frame data

We can agree that doing 236B x 214A > 2B works.

And 236B > 2B doesn't

So it appears that the first works because by cancelling 236B by 214A, the 236B recovery is shorten by the 214A cancel

But, the recovery of 236B is 32 (30 + 2 from the active frames)

And the total duration of 214A is 40frames

So : wtf ?

Since when does cancelling 32 frames with a move that last 40 frames unlocks new combos ?

There is not a lot of answer, maybe I'm missing something, or there is a mistake in the frame data

[Justice7541]

A little question on Izayoi's frame data

We can agree that doing 236B x 214A > 2B works.

And 236B > 2B doesn't

So it appears that the first works because by cancelling 236B by 214A, the 236B recovery is shorten by the 214A cancel

But, the recovery of 236B is 32 (30 + 2 from the active frames)

And the total duration of 214A is 40frames

So : wtf ?

Since when does cancelling 32 frames with a move that last 40 frames unlocks new combos ?

There is not a lot of answer, maybe I'm missing something, or there is a mistake in the frame data

Recovery on teleports is cancelable with normals and specials. The frame data isn't super clear on that.

[Celerity]

236B is a hard knockdown for 30F, plus float time (probably like 3F if you hit a standing opponent), so we'll say 33F. That would mean 214A is cancelable on the 23rd frame, since 2B is 11F and a frame-perfect link afterwards. That's about consistent with what I found when I was testing it.

214B is exactly 4F slower, which is why 236B > 214B > 2A doesn't work.

[Midnight-Zephyr]

I just wanted to ask what the best way to handle Izayoi's stocks would be like. Could anyone please lay out a general gameplan for stock management (What's worth using it on, certain situations, etc.) Im trying to take notes on these things so I gave I can better know what im doing when I play this character.

[abadlime]

Everyone has their own way of managing stocks. Just use them to what fits your playstyle.

Personally, I'll use them for oki stuff. I don't use D tele much unless I "feel" I can call them out or catch them off guard. D sabers are nice for holding down opponents on their wake up so I can just get away with silly mix up things. I just make sure I have at least 1-2 stocks to finish a combo and go into normal mode as safely as possible. If you know the combos to regain stock, you're much better than I am already.

I'm sure someone else can give a better report on this though…

[crimsonstardust]

Well first thing is to not use it yolo teleports cause that will probably get you killed and you wasted stocks for nothing. Using D swords can be situational (and its gonna be more expensive to use in the up coming patch), if you get it to hit you can force a mix up on your opponent but a lot of times your stocks are going to be used for strike fall combo enders and asteria of of 236C. A lot of people don't like to use D swords as a lock down meaty oki but if you have the stocks to spare and you need that one last mix up its not bad to use then. Things like D teleport is good to use when your opponent is trying to zone you out but again you have to be wary of when to use it.

There are combos and such that will let you go back to normal mode of a bit and stock up again real quick and be back in the fight with it, example, corner:GA jC (5B) 5C 236C~D 2C 236B RC~D (Normal mode) 2C 623B 214B (your inputs cross up here) 623C jC D. With a combo like this you get 4 stocks back and have pretty good positioning as well.

So the nice short answer: use it mostly for strike falls and asterias, use the other stuff when the situation calls for it.

[Midnight-Zephyr]

Thanks badlime &crimson. It seems that combo is something worth learning (and implementing) at the very least.

Is the oki idea optimal? It sounds neat in theory but does it justify the cost of those stocks? (Regardless, I'll try D Saber oki, as it seems like a good way to throw em' off gaurd.

[Celerity]

IMO you should strive to get 6 stocks in normal mode, switch to GA and never switch back. Try not to waste stocks, use them on the bare essentials like everybody said. One of Izayoi's weaknesses is that she doesn't get much damage by spending meter, other than throw > RC combos and midscreen corner carry stuff, so you might as well use your meter to RC and regain stocks whenever possible. I'll also OD fairly aggressively if it means I get to keep my momentum; the screen freeze and invincibility from OD can be useful when you're expecting them to poke or jump out of your pressure, and you then regain enough stocks for two big combos to end the round.

And yeah, as for the mode switch combos, the new combo thread is coming very soon, I promise!

[crimsonstardust]

Thanks badlime &crimson. It seems that combo is something worth learning (and implementing) at the very least.

Is the oki idea optimal? It sounds neat in theory but does it justify the cost of those stocks? (Regardless, I'll try D Saber oki, as it seems like a good way to throw em' off gaurd.

Really depends, I did that for awhile but I found using jC safe jumps to be much for reliable after a strike fall in terms of meter usage and such. If you know you opponent is a little reversal happy on wake up, then using the D swords oki wouldn't be bad but why do that when you can force a reversal bait and catch their legs with a GA 3C fatal. It's one of those situational things again, cause if your opponent is aware if it they can front roll away from it but most people are to used to just holding a button down to tech without thinking so again its situational.

[Angel-tastic]

Here's how I manage my stocks in case it gives you some ideas.

I mostly just use them for Valkyrie Astraea and Strike Fall, so the plan for me is to use 2 stocks per combo, which should be enough to win the round. I try to switch modes with 6 stocks like Celerity does, and I usually get my stocks from this combo:

Confirm - CS Gamma - 214A - 2B - CS Alpha - 214B - CS Alpha

At the end of the usual midscreen combo (Confirm - CS Beta~Astraea - 214B - 5B - 5C - jc.B - j.C - jc.B - j.C - Strike Noir) you can also add on 5A - 5C - jc.B - j.C - jc.C - Strike Noir, but I only do this if it would put the opponent in the corner, as otherwise the ~500 extra damage you get isn't worth spending another stock IMO. Also, when Izayoi was first released people used to do 214D after Noir Edge several times (I think the "Noir Loop" is what people were calling it), but that barely adds any damage, so I wouldn't do that unless I thought I could win the round with that combo, since it just wastes your stocks otherwise IMO. Also, if I anti-air with CS Alpha, I just do Strike Fall, since the anti-air combo does damage rather inefficiently compared to it's stock usage IMO, so I think going straight to Strike Fall oki is better.

214D can be good against zoners sometimes. When you're fighting Nu, if you see her do Spike Chaser or 4D, you can counter her with 214D -> throw or something since the recovery for her moves is so long (like 50-ish frames average). You can do that for all of her drives and specials, but those two are the only ones I think are slow enough to react to though. Also, you can use A Sonic Saber and then try to D teleport right as it hits to start a block string, but the opponent can punish you if they jump over the projectile, so try to only do that if they can't easily dodge the Sonic Saber. Those are the only things I really use 214D for outside of combos.

I used to use D Sonic Saber a lot as a pressure reset, which works fantastically well IMO, but I've been trying to do that less since the stock usage is getting increased soon, but it's still helpful if the opponent prefers not to jump too much. They can just jump over it of course if you use it in obvious places. Some people like to use Air D Sonic Saber as corner oki after strike fall, but I usually just do j.C safe jump. 2C seems to work well against characters without DPs, but it's too obvious to use against characters who can wake-up DP though.

[skd]

BIG changes.

Backstep - Total Duration 20F → 22F. Invincible 1F ~ 5F → 1F ~ 7F

GA Backstep - Total duration 18F → 22F of the shortest possible backdash. Invincible 1F ~ 5F → 1F ~ 7F. Travel distance increased

Air Dashes in GA - 2x airdashes, adjustable by moving up or down during the dash.

Air back step of gain Art - same as ground dash but no invin.

Stagger hitbox - some kind of correction.

5B - hitbox increased to catch rolls, apparently? overall hitbox buff, "wont lose" at tip (probably all red now).

GA 5C - Knock back decreased

6A - Guard point on 4th frame (THIS IS FUCKING GODLIKE)

6B - Foot invin on 4th frame (THIS IS FUCKING GODLIKE) Some kind of change to the feint input with holding the button?

3C - Higher float, lower p2 (89 to 79).

GA 3C - Cancelable on hit.

GA jC - Active frames up from 3 to 5.

CT - unblockable removed at full charge.

D Sonic Saber - Takes two zero weave stocks, additional damage (im assuming the spawned swords) down from 200 to 150.

Ground D Sonic Saber - Fast, but less frame adv. Total duration from 43f to 51f, but startup down from 26f to 20f (this is fucking big). Static difference on block point blank is down from +28 to +19. Cancelable into mirage thruster.

Air D Sonic Saber - Startup 23F → 22F. Total duration 42F → 41F.

Crusade Seraphim Gamma - P2 89% → 79%.

D Mirage thruster - Takes 1 Zero weave stock

SLAVER TRANS AM - LASTS TWICE AS FUCKING LONG

A lot of good things, new D saber is really, really cool. A sad thing is that...we are probably going to lose modechange combo? by the new data, 51f total duration means 20f startup + 31f recovery (gosh). So even with D thruster (you have a cancel point on the recovery, making it shorter, but you are already adding wayyyy too much time with D tele so yeah) you cant make it there on time ;;

Edited March 12, 2014 by not_lunaris

[crimsonstardust]

I was looking at some of this earlier, I still don't get what's cancelable on hit for GA 3C, jump cancelable, special cancelable? I like the 6A change, only thing I want to know for it is if someone taps her toes, is it gonna block that also? Hmm I personally don't know if I would use Trans Am just cause of how costly it is, I dunno if some cool tech with it comes up that probably will change my mind on it.

Edited March 12, 2014 by crimsonstardust

[BKDennis]

It's a pity that 6B is still not comboable without RC but these changes are fucking awesome, can't wait

[Celerity]

SLAVER TRANS AM - LASTS TWICE AS FUCKING LONG

Is this even a big deal though? Trans-Am's problem isn't that it doesn't last long enough. I guess it means you don't need to burn OD on fatal combos anymore, but...

The extra invuln and GA 3C changes sound great. I'm not sure how I feel about the swords changes; it sounds like 66 > 2B isn't going to be safe from 236D anymore, which hurts our mixup game significantly. They want us to spend 3 stars to get a safe 50/50 from it now?

[skd]

well i edited the post too late, but we are also probably going to lose modechange as a result, which is...fine, i guess a real reason to use OD, along with overall stronger GA . The invin/gp changes are super super super nice. i guess more focus on neutral and movement (spacing/moving well with new options + A saber > D tele to produce frame adv, only one star now but...still kinda risky). 3 stars for that is...expensive, but I think its worth it for 20f startup on D saber, you can cancel off 5C with a 4f gap? Its a decent tradeoff.

Trans-am lasting twice as long is pretty cool honestly hahaha, your pressure becomes really scary, even though the cost was expensive before, cancelable 3C now probably gives us better combo options without any stars during trans-am. Reset cityyy. Also you get mixup on knockdown after a combo which is prettyyyy cool.

oh yeah, 2C TK D Saber used to work on fatal, but now that its 22f i think it might work off of 2C non fatal now? It doesnt get hit by the recovery change that ground saber did, so maybe theres something there (dont get your hopes up)

Edited March 12, 2014 by not_lunaris

[Celerity]

Updated the OP with the new changes.

What exactly does it mean where it says she can now cancel ground swords into air teleport?

[bakahyl]

Updated the OP with the new changes.

What exactly does it mean where it says she can now cancel ground swords into air teleport?

"空中Dミラージュスラスターに派生可能に"

Dunno, maybe she will teleport behind an opponent after the projectile hits?

edit: wait a moment... couldn't izayoi already do that ?

Edited March 12, 2014 by bakahyl

[Midnight-Zephyr]

Here's how I manage my stocks in case it gives you some ideas.

I mostly just use them for Valkyrie Astraea and Strike Fall, so the plan for me is to use 2 stocks per combo, which should be enough to win the round. I try to switch modes with 6 stocks like Celerity does, and I usually get my stocks from this combo:

Confirm - CS Gamma - 214A - 2B - CS Alpha - 214B - CS Alpha

At the end of the usual midscreen combo (Confirm - CS Beta~Astraea - 214B - 5B - 5C - jc.B - j.C - jc.B - j.C - Strike Noir) you can also add on 5A - 5C - jc.B - j.C - jc.C - Strike Noir, but I only do this if it would put the opponent in the corner, as otherwise the ~500 extra damage you get isn't worth spending another stock IMO. Also, when Izayoi was first released people used to do 214D after Noir Edge several times (I think the "Noir Loop" is what people were calling it), but that barely adds any damage, so I wouldn't do that unless I thought I could win the round with that combo, since it just wastes your stocks otherwise IMO. Also, if I anti-air with CS Alpha, I just do Strike Fall, since the anti-air combo does damage rather inefficiently compared to it's stock usage IMO, so I think going straight to Strike Fall oki is better.

214D can be good against zoners sometimes. When you're fighting Nu, if you see her do Spike Chaser or 4D, you can counter her with 214D -> throw or something since the recovery for her moves is so long (like 50-ish frames average). You can do that for all of her drives and specials, but those two are the only ones I think are slow enough to react to though. Also, you can use A Sonic Saber and then try to D teleport right as it hits to start a block string, but the opponent can punish you if they jump over the projectile, so try to only do that if they can't easily dodge the Sonic Saber. Those are the only things I really use 214D for outside of combos.

I used to use D Sonic Saber a lot as a pressure reset, which works fantastically well IMO, but I've been trying to do that less since the stock usage is getting increased soon, but it's still helpful if the opponent prefers not to jump too much. They can just jump over it of course if you use it in obvious places. Some people like to use Air D Sonic Saber as corner oki after strike fall, but I usually just do j.C safe jump. 2C seems to work well against characters without DPs, but it's too obvious to use against characters who can wake-up DP though.

214D can beat zoners? Thats really good to know seeing as no matter who I play as, I have the hardest time againsst Nu or Mu.

From what it seems, D Saber is best used in Netplay lol. Im afraid I might start a bad habit if I rely on it.

Celerity, you said the combo thread will be up soon? That's awesome. I'll be sure to check it out (I need all the help I can get).

[Justice7541]

Updated the OP with the new changes.

What exactly does it mean where it says she can now cancel ground swords into air teleport?

I don't think she can cancel ground D saber into ground teleport, maybe that's what they mean. Might have been a typo or mistranslation like with the CT thing.

[skd]

I don't think she can cancel ground D saber into ground teleport, maybe that's what they mean. Might have been a typo or mistranslation like with the CT thing.

ummm no? D saber recovery is in the air, it only makes sense that it would be cancelable into air teleport

[Rhannmah]

Crusade Seraphim Beta P2 89% → 79%.

This seems like a huge damage nerf, considering this always comes very early in GA combos.

[Daedron]

I guess we'll be doing 236C(whiff) > 6D instead.

Either that or there's some new combo route, most likely involving 3C.

[Celerity]

This seems like a huge damage nerf, considering this always comes very early in GA combos.

Oh whoops, you're right, SoWL's translation made me think it was 236B, but it's 236C.

Right now you can get almost as much damage in longer combos by whiffing 236C into 6D, so that's probably what we're looking at from now on. Probably like a 2% damage nerf to GA combos overall, but the reduced pushback on 5C should mean way more damage on CH/crouching confirms, so it's still a really good tradeoff.